It’s good news for sure. But I still don’t trust WotC.
And Pathfinder 2e is just plain better. In four decades of playing TTRPGs I’ve never played a ruleset so tactical, so clean, so enjoyable. It’s a thing of beauty. So I could care less what happens with D&D.
I’m playing Pathfinder for the first time after never having played D&D (aside from bg3 I guess) and man… Maybe it’s because I’m new to it, using roll20, the DM/group, or the campaign is just confusing but I can’t fathom thinking it’s clean.
I’m finding a lot of it very complicated and confusing. Everything seems to have some underlying system that requires different rolls and numbers and every time I try to look up an answer instead of asking, I wind up with more questions…
Please don’t take that as an insult to the game - I AM having fun 15+ sessions in…I’m just surprised to see you describe it that way. The group is all veteran players who are willing to help me out but it feels like they’re so much stuff that you have to memorize to do anything. So many caveats I wouldn’t know if one guy wasn’t a rules lawyer (that’s a compliment)
I definitely get that. Pathfinder (like D&D and other rules-heavy TTRPGs) has a learning curve, and things can get confusing for newer players.
Imho any game is either rules-heavy, and as such closer to reality with more defined rules for various situations, or it is rules-light, where GM-Interpretation is other needed to determine what to role. (Or somewhere in between)
Any rules-heavy game is going to take time to learn, and sometimes it will be unclear what is correct. But I find that the PF2e rules are actually very clear, you just have to pay close attention to the wording.
For example, if you get an attack of opportunity(AoO), can you grapple instead of attacking? Can you trip?
The answer is in the descriptions of those actions. An attack of opportunity allows for a strike action. A grapple is a standard action. A trip is a strike action. So a trip is allowed, a grapple isn’t.
The entire game is built like this. Can a barbarian use this action while raging? Well, does it have the rage trait? If not, then no. Spells no longer have levels, they have ranks, so that no one confuses them with character level. It’s all in the wording.
But again, I’m approaching this as a TTRPG veteran who has GMed systems like shadowrun and world of darkness, that are basically the poster-children for needlessly complicated and/or conflicting rules. I totally understand that any rules-heavy game can be confusing.
If improving the simulation always means more difficulty, then that means the rulesets are all perfectly efficient.
However, if the rulesets are not perfectly efficient, then some of them could be made easier to learn, while still being as good or better at simulation and distinctions.
(My inexperience is showing - I thought Pathfinder and 2e were synonymous like…pathfinder is based on the d&d version 2e ruleset. But yes, we are playing 2e!)
I appreciate the response, you do make some good points. After I posted that I was trying to think of examples and I think my biggest complaints might all be related to confusion using roll20 itself… Like where I’m supposed to add numbers. It wasn’t until I replaced my bow that I learned I had my first one entered totally wrong (GM noticed it when helping me input the new one) and I was doing less damage than I should have been. Obviously I can’t expect the site to have every spell and item in the game ready to add with 1 click…but it WOULD be nice if feats that modify a stat did so automationally or something. Do you know of any good guides on using roll20 specifically for 2e?
I think the thing I wish was “better” about pathfinder is the streamlining for new players. I love dense video games so I’m not scared of that, I just wish I didn’t have to consult the rules lawyer every time something new happened. It definitely feels like a game you need to study in your off time to grasp the complexities. I think that’s my only “complaint” about the game itself.
Pathfinder 1st Edition was a branch of DnD 3.5, it is occasionally called 3.5.5 or 3.75. It is pretty much a 3rd party patch for 3.5 but uses the same core systems. That, 3.5 and PF1e, is kind of a mess.
I’m not surprised you find PF2e confusing, but from a design standpoint I would call it clean, considering everything that is going on. It is deep, but well organized. As opposed to DnD 5e, which is relatively shallow, which can make it easier to jump into, but not as well organized. The messiest part of 5e is the “natural language” philosophy they went with, which can leave a lot of rules ambiguous. It was supposed to make it easier to intuitively pick up and play, but it also makes it much easier to have misconceptions and anything that is slightly unintuitive can easily be accidentally used the wrong way for ages. PF2e might have a lot of interconnected rules depth, but it also has a less ambiguous guide for dealing with it, which is what enfranchised players will generally mean by “clean.”
Imho any game is either rules-heavy, and as such closer to reality with more defined rules for various situations, or it is rules-light, where GM-Interpretation is other needed to determine what to role. (Or somewhere in between)
I don’t think more rules necessarily mean more like reality. You can have a bunch of rules for grappling, and create a system that anyone who actually does hand-to-hand stuff would say is nonsense.
That said, I think a lot of people would enjoy lighter systems than d20. Maybe not the people who get a kick out of the “lonely fun” of reading about builds online, but the people who just show up to play and the people who are there for a story? They’d probably be happier in Fate.
I do agree. The most fun I’ve ever had with a TTRPG is as a player in a Monster of the Week game, which is super rules-light. And we do get a very good representation of real life using these mechanics, but that’s because thw GM is really good at making decisions about how mechanics work for a particular PC abilities,
and then sticking to it.
Yeah it’s maybe 3 or 4 sessions at most. It’s analogous to the first act of LMOP in 5e terms. Literally just a single small dungeon. Two floors, like 6 rooms on each floor. Rooms gradually introduce new mechanics like the first room is just a basic fight. Then there’s a room that teaches the most basic of skill checks. Then one that teaches about conditions, one that teaches about damage over time, one that teaches about traps, etc.
Pathfinder 2e is definitely more complicated than DND 5e, but in return you get a much more interesting, expressive game, in my opinion. When people say it’s cleanly designed they are normally comparing it to pathfinder 1e, which is a labyrinth of bizarre rules, pointless edge cases and overly crunchy rolls.
I’m playing my first PathFinder 2e game right now, and while I do prefer it over 5e, I definitely think there’s a lot of opportunity to streamline.
Also I can’t remember what exactly it was, but there was something I needed to do when leveling up my wizard that was hidden in the text of some paragraph in the class description, which was less than ideal, lol.
It’s probably better to just search the Archives of Nethys. That should have links to most of the buried rules sitting beneath whatever you’re looking for.
It’s at least partly because you’re using roll20. Switch to Foundry. It does all the math and automation for you. You don’t have to memorize how all those noodly mechanics work.
Does Trip target fortitude or reflex? Idk, the Trip action macro does it for me.
Might be a hard sell to the group but I’ll see what they say. I just replied to the OC saying this but in retrospect, a lot of my issues are definitely with roll20 and not 2e. Feels like when I have to enter things in 5 different places sometimes!
Yeah I’ve only used roll20 briefly but my experience with it left me wondering why it’s the defacto recommendation for 5e players. Foundry works a lot better for crunchy systems like PF2E, and at a certain point it’s easier with a non-crunchy system like 5e to just use something minimal like Owlbear Rodeo or Tabletop Sim
I’m sure it also didn’t help that I only had a day or two to put together a level 7 character. Having to manually enter everything for a game I’ve never played was a lot
Oh my God, you were playing a level 7 for your first time‽ Yeah that would ruin anyone’s experience. PF2E isn’t like 5e where higher levels just make your character more badass. The game genuinely gets more complex as you level up. That’s why you’re supposed to start the game at level 1.
Yeah, I joined their campaign when someone had to drop out. We’re up to 14 now and I deeply regret the decisions I’ve made along the way but it’s too hard to backtrack now lol
When we’re done with this one we’re gonna do the GM’s homebrew and I’ll be putting more thought into what I want to play. I’m sure you’ll be seeing my post requesting input in the coming weeks…the possibilities are very daunting.
It feels too tight for me. I dislike Wizards but 5e offers the right level of crunch and juicy mixed. Too much crunch becomes a war tactics simulator I’m not about.
I prefer systems like Straight to VHS that really let creativity fly. I don’t need a feat to tell me what makes me special
It’s good news for sure. But I still don’t trust WotC.
And Pathfinder 2e is just plain better. In four decades of playing TTRPGs I’ve never played a ruleset so tactical, so clean, so enjoyable. It’s a thing of beauty. So I could care less what happens with D&D.
I’m playing Pathfinder for the first time after never having played D&D (aside from bg3 I guess) and man… Maybe it’s because I’m new to it, using roll20, the DM/group, or the campaign is just confusing but I can’t fathom thinking it’s clean.
I’m finding a lot of it very complicated and confusing. Everything seems to have some underlying system that requires different rolls and numbers and every time I try to look up an answer instead of asking, I wind up with more questions…
Please don’t take that as an insult to the game - I AM having fun 15+ sessions in…I’m just surprised to see you describe it that way. The group is all veteran players who are willing to help me out but it feels like they’re so much stuff that you have to memorize to do anything. So many caveats I wouldn’t know if one guy wasn’t a rules lawyer (that’s a compliment)
I assume you are playing 2e.
I definitely get that. Pathfinder (like D&D and other rules-heavy TTRPGs) has a learning curve, and things can get confusing for newer players.
Imho any game is either rules-heavy, and as such closer to reality with more defined rules for various situations, or it is rules-light, where GM-Interpretation is other needed to determine what to role. (Or somewhere in between)
Any rules-heavy game is going to take time to learn, and sometimes it will be unclear what is correct. But I find that the PF2e rules are actually very clear, you just have to pay close attention to the wording.
For example, if you get an attack of opportunity(AoO), can you grapple instead of attacking? Can you trip?
The answer is in the descriptions of those actions. An attack of opportunity allows for a strike action. A grapple is a standard action. A trip is a strike action. So a trip is allowed, a grapple isn’t.
The entire game is built like this. Can a barbarian use this action while raging? Well, does it have the rage trait? If not, then no. Spells no longer have levels, they have ranks, so that no one confuses them with character level. It’s all in the wording.
But again, I’m approaching this as a TTRPG veteran who has GMed systems like shadowrun and world of darkness, that are basically the poster-children for needlessly complicated and/or conflicting rules. I totally understand that any rules-heavy game can be confusing.
@UNY0N @glimse
This is Liebnitzian thinking.
If improving the simulation always means more difficulty, then that means the rulesets are all perfectly efficient.
However, if the rulesets are not perfectly efficient, then some of them could be made easier to learn, while still being as good or better at simulation and distinctions.
(My inexperience is showing - I thought Pathfinder and 2e were synonymous like…pathfinder is based on the d&d version 2e ruleset. But yes, we are playing 2e!)
I appreciate the response, you do make some good points. After I posted that I was trying to think of examples and I think my biggest complaints might all be related to confusion using roll20 itself… Like where I’m supposed to add numbers. It wasn’t until I replaced my bow that I learned I had my first one entered totally wrong (GM noticed it when helping me input the new one) and I was doing less damage than I should have been. Obviously I can’t expect the site to have every spell and item in the game ready to add with 1 click…but it WOULD be nice if feats that modify a stat did so automationally or something. Do you know of any good guides on using roll20 specifically for 2e?
I think the thing I wish was “better” about pathfinder is the streamlining for new players. I love dense video games so I’m not scared of that, I just wish I didn’t have to consult the rules lawyer every time something new happened. It definitely feels like a game you need to study in your off time to grasp the complexities. I think that’s my only “complaint” about the game itself.
Pathfinder 1st Edition was a branch of DnD 3.5, it is occasionally called 3.5.5 or 3.75. It is pretty much a 3rd party patch for 3.5 but uses the same core systems. That, 3.5 and PF1e, is kind of a mess.
I’m not surprised you find PF2e confusing, but from a design standpoint I would call it clean, considering everything that is going on. It is deep, but well organized. As opposed to DnD 5e, which is relatively shallow, which can make it easier to jump into, but not as well organized. The messiest part of 5e is the “natural language” philosophy they went with, which can leave a lot of rules ambiguous. It was supposed to make it easier to intuitively pick up and play, but it also makes it much easier to have misconceptions and anything that is slightly unintuitive can easily be accidentally used the wrong way for ages. PF2e might have a lot of interconnected rules depth, but it also has a less ambiguous guide for dealing with it, which is what enfranchised players will generally mean by “clean.”
I don’t think more rules necessarily mean more like reality. You can have a bunch of rules for grappling, and create a system that anyone who actually does hand-to-hand stuff would say is nonsense.
That said, I think a lot of people would enjoy lighter systems than d20. Maybe not the people who get a kick out of the “lonely fun” of reading about builds online, but the people who just show up to play and the people who are there for a story? They’d probably be happier in Fate.
I do agree. The most fun I’ve ever had with a TTRPG is as a player in a Monster of the Week game, which is super rules-light. And we do get a very good representation of real life using these mechanics, but that’s because thw GM is really good at making decisions about how mechanics work for a particular PC abilities, and then sticking to it.
The system is clean. The books?.. They could explain the system a little more clearly in some places.
I would love to play a Baby’s First Pathfinder Campaign that introduced the systems one by one. Though maybe that’s just a d&d campaign…
The Beginner Box does this
Is it a shorter campaign? I’d be willing to join a group of strangers if it’s only a couple sessions, I just couldn’t commit to a long one
Yeah it’s maybe 3 or 4 sessions at most. It’s analogous to the first act of LMOP in 5e terms. Literally just a single small dungeon. Two floors, like 6 rooms on each floor. Rooms gradually introduce new mechanics like the first room is just a basic fight. Then there’s a room that teaches the most basic of skill checks. Then one that teaches about conditions, one that teaches about damage over time, one that teaches about traps, etc.
That seems like what I should have started with, then.
Pathfinder 2e is definitely more complicated than DND 5e, but in return you get a much more interesting, expressive game, in my opinion. When people say it’s cleanly designed they are normally comparing it to pathfinder 1e, which is a labyrinth of bizarre rules, pointless edge cases and overly crunchy rolls.
I’m playing my first PathFinder 2e game right now, and while I do prefer it over 5e, I definitely think there’s a lot of opportunity to streamline.
Also I can’t remember what exactly it was, but there was something I needed to do when leveling up my wizard that was hidden in the text of some paragraph in the class description, which was less than ideal, lol.
Pretty much my only use of AI is asking it what page to look at for the rule I need.
It’s probably better to just search the Archives of Nethys. That should have links to most of the buried rules sitting beneath whatever you’re looking for.
It’s at least partly because you’re using roll20. Switch to Foundry. It does all the math and automation for you. You don’t have to memorize how all those noodly mechanics work.
Does Trip target fortitude or reflex? Idk, the Trip action macro does it for me.
Might be a hard sell to the group but I’ll see what they say. I just replied to the OC saying this but in retrospect, a lot of my issues are definitely with roll20 and not 2e. Feels like when I have to enter things in 5 different places sometimes!
Yeah I’ve only used roll20 briefly but my experience with it left me wondering why it’s the defacto recommendation for 5e players. Foundry works a lot better for crunchy systems like PF2E, and at a certain point it’s easier with a non-crunchy system like 5e to just use something minimal like Owlbear Rodeo or Tabletop Sim
I’m sure it also didn’t help that I only had a day or two to put together a level 7 character. Having to manually enter everything for a game I’ve never played was a lot
Oh my God, you were playing a level 7 for your first time‽ Yeah that would ruin anyone’s experience. PF2E isn’t like 5e where higher levels just make your character more badass. The game genuinely gets more complex as you level up. That’s why you’re supposed to start the game at level 1.
Yeah, I joined their campaign when someone had to drop out. We’re up to 14 now and I deeply regret the decisions I’ve made along the way but it’s too hard to backtrack now lol
When we’re done with this one we’re gonna do the GM’s homebrew and I’ll be putting more thought into what I want to play. I’m sure you’ll be seeing my post requesting input in the coming weeks…the possibilities are very daunting.
Agreed so much praise for pathfinder but honestly I don’t see it.
The group I’m with can’t stand d&d and I didn’t want to play with strangers so I’m “stuck” with it. It’s not bad, just a lot to take in
It feels too tight for me. I dislike Wizards but 5e offers the right level of crunch and juicy mixed. Too much crunch becomes a war tactics simulator I’m not about.
I prefer systems like Straight to VHS that really let creativity fly. I don’t need a feat to tell me what makes me special