Hmmm, today i will attack any attempts to run a better candidate against trump
Have you been voting in all of your local elections and primarys?
If not, then you haven’t done anything at all to get a better candidate against anyone.
I’ve been voting in local and state elections for the last 24 years. When will that produce a better candidate?
Not during this election.
I can’t wait until I’m like 90 and I actually get to vote for someone I like.
That soon? You’re being too optimistic.
The inherent problem at the core of it all is you’ll only have the option to vote for people that want to be in politics.
And that you only have the option (realistically) to vote for people that other voters want to be in politics. As a conversation with other voters will quickly show, is a depressing concept.
This election is already full.
I hope progressives are building a candidate for the next election. It takes years
Well then we can still pressure Biden to do the right thing. The election is still 6 months away, not next week. Blind support for Biden will not make anything better.
Never said that. I’m only discussing election day in my comment, that’s pretty obvious
Progressives are excessively difficult to win support from the Dems or Reps due to campaign interests and media spin. The only candidates that recieve enough backing are the ones that pose no danger to the wealthy Capitalists.
Progressives should take that backing as their chief objective, and start building systems to win. That means media and financial backing.
That would require getting cozy with billionaires who are opposed to progressive causes. How is that supposed to work? What you’re proposing is like starting a game of monopoly where the other players own 90% of the properties already and claiming that if you just play along and hopefully land on properties that aren’t already owned then maybe you can trade your way up to establish yourself. How likely do you think this is to work?
The other options include: continuing to be a fringe platform, overthrowing a global system.
Materially, I think developing ever stronger unions (labor and otherwise) who can pool resources to compete in politics. Seconded by a strong push to win many more low level grassroots seats. Conservatives are winning these seats. By winning the lower seats, bureaucratic maneuvers are easier, and consensus is “cheaper”.
We had a strong labor movement but it took decades of fighting, the largest economic crisis ever, and two world wars, among other things to establish a middle class as we used to know it. It took much less time for the rich to dismantle that. I agree we should keep working to push the power of labor, but reaching our goals while working within the system is going to be impossible. There’s a reason why it took such catastrophic events to actually get anywhere.
How do you get media and financial backing if you fundamentally go against that which maintains their funding?
I agree that leftists should organize, but more along the lines of the Black Panther Party or other groups actively making a difference first.
You develop funding from sources you find more ethical: macro union agreements.
You need to look up present income inequality statistics. Billionaires are insane and inflation is making normal working class people tighten their budgets a lot. It’s a very uphill battle or outfund billionaires.
I agree that organizing is fantastic, but the sheer difference in quantity of Capital is why it is necessary for a leftist party to focus primarily on delivering needs externally to the system before attempting to win over local and state level elections. Grow from the bottom up.
The Black Panther Party is your standard for making a difference.
Yeah, that’s about what I expected.
Yes, directly supporting and feeding children, supported gay rights, and promoted leftist theory and community building is good.
Hating on the Black Panther Party is about what I expected of you, funny enough.
Loving the Black Panther Party for having a nice ten points and a horrible record of not actually accomplishing anything substantial and murdering members of their own organization for not being sufficiently pure is about what I expected of an ML.
Not understanding the importance of the black panther party is about what I expected from you.
The group that came in at the tail end of the civil rights movement, murdered its own members, and then was effectively shuttered by the FBI?
THAT’S your standard for success?
I still remember 2020, progressives were bartering “just elect Biden this time, then next election we can elect AOC or Bernie”.
And yet they didn’t build those candidates.
I’m not bartering anything. I’m looking at the options directly ahead, and commenting about what I wish could be in the next rounds
And yet they didn’t build those candidates.
any attempts have been immediately quashed by folks like you.
Miss.
miss what? Im watching you do it in real time.
“miss what?” Yup
The US system doesn’t work that way. You have a choice between two people. A vote for a third party is a vote not counted.
You’re so engrossed in talking over the other person that you failed to read what they said.
They said “Run a better candidate against” Trump which IS possible to do by the DNC.
Not in this election, it’s far too late
The convention absolutely can select a different candidate.
I love that you lot complain that it’s not REAL democracy because the DNC is so sneaky behind the scenes, and then in the same breath demand that the DNC undemocratically appoint someone as their candidate who appeals to you and your fellows, voters be damned.
And you wonder why everyone thinks of you as fascists.
It’s the duty of the party to nominate an electable candidate is it not? They had a farce of a primary this year, so the only hope left is a hail mary out of the convention.
It’s the duty of the party to nominate an electable candidate is it not?
Oh, so now you DON’T care about democracy in the party. How convenient, how your ideals change depending on which allows you to scream “BOTH SIDES” the loudest.
It’s so frustrating to talk to democrat supporters. You guys should remember how that cost the DNC 2016.
No like, I’m ready to vote for a competitive progressive candidate, but building that candidate will take time. Years.
The next best thing is not-republican.
You guys had Bernie Sanders.
Yeah, and a majority of voters didn’t turn out for him. You think I was fucking chuffed to go through that twice in a row?
With this level of support and rhetoric:
democrat supporters
Lmao did you mean ‘reality observers’?
The primary is over, Jack.
The “reality observers” that gave trump the election in 2016? Brilliant strategy, “reality observer”.
What fucking primary, the dnc did their level best to not allow a real one
What primary? There was some bullshit formality thing. But there wasn’t any actual primary.
Maybe the US system doesn’t work that way because people keep screaming at everyone who doesn’t vote for their one party vs the only other. It’s really odd to claim that your vote matters and then yell at anyone who tries to do anything with their vote other than to guarantee their vote for one of two parties. If the argument is to preserve democracy, well, it already looks like we don’t have democracy.
Your democracy is at stake and you are yelling that we should do democracy harder instead of attempting to keep the democracy destroyer out of office. Carry on though and personally insult me like you did in your last comment.
I’m not American so I don’t have a dog in this fight.
You’re not American and don’t have a dog in the fight, but you want to explain the electoral system that I participate in to me. Not sure where I insulted you or yelled (no exclamation point or all-caps/bolded words in sight), so it seems like you’ve completely misinterpreted my post. I didn’t say we should “democracy harder”, I said we don’t have a democracy and that it’s just a facade where people get really passionate about voting for one of only two viable options. Kind of hard to save something that doesn’t exist. Will things get worse under republicans? Absolutely. Will democrats do anything about that? Absolutely not. They’ll keep the office warm until the next time republicans inevitably win back power in this crooked system.
It’s because we have a winner-takes-all electoral college system. It encourages domination not cooperation and self-perpetuates because it stifles ideological competition. It’s not merely a social phenomenon.
How are we supposed to break out of such a system? Both parties benefit from this system and will never agree to change it. About a decade ago in Canada, the liberal party claimed they’d carry out election reform if they won. They ended up winning big time, but they refused to do what they promised because it would threaten the power structure.
Right, trump vs another candidate. Biden is awful and is the reason why the election is in any kind of jeopardy. But when trump wins in november there’ll be no self awareness to be found, that people were promoting an unviable candidate that no one likes.
oh yeah the notoriously huge and election-swinging group in the us: the communists.
don’t delegate your problems.
That’s a horrible waste of a vote. Please vote third party instead of not voting 🙂
Just like when they taught Hillary Clinton a lesson. That worked or well for everyone, right?
See I think most on here are Republican Plants, Why simple they seem to not grasp Biden votes with the middle of his party. At the very core a politition thus his position changes with the party…
In many ways this makes him a good if not boring president.
Why, well if you elect people into Congress that generally vote with the Democrats that are alighned diffrently his votes will match.
People complain (including myself) about his non questioning support of Netanyahu, but look at how few members of Congress challenge that? yes Sanders did specifically on the isreal issue… but who else even of the extream left?
Ah the daily fascism discourse multiplier thread. There’s never any meaningful discourse that comes out of these: just divisive kafkaesque noise.
Tankies when they finally create a dictatorship, only to work in the mines because the quota for poets was already met.
In 2016, the blue team won by 3 million votes and still lost the election. The system is broken. I’ll still vote blue, but I don’t think it will matter, especially since I’m not in a swing state.
Turning 35 this September. Only 1 Republican has won the popular vote since I was born.
Well yeah, that’s why they love the EC (and idea of land >>> people)
They don’t care.
Sure they will tell people that democracy will end if Trump is reelected but actually trying to fix the voting system is too hard.
Not that there has been any movement to do something about it. Just vote Democrat™.
The electoral college, first past the post and gerrymandering basically make the American electoral system a joke
Matters for your more local elections. Those swing states still send a lot of republicans to Congress every election. And control of Congress is pretty damn important.
More important than who’s president.
The Democrats and Republicans are all friends after hours. They meet up for dinner, have drinks, laugh, and then go back to their jobs in the morning.
Ah yes, a system that is nothing like the American one, one without the electoral college.
Is this strawman clueless, or do you have no idea whats going on.
It’s just more threats and insults for progressives that refuse to just toe the line. Don’t you know a proper leftist/progressive/liberal is obedient?
Would it help you to pretend it’s a state tally after the third recount of a Florida district? Are you familiar with President George W Bush?
Like, come on. You understand the meme, and you’re just being pedantic.
You understand the meme, and you’re just being pedantic.
They’re being disingenuous, which is worse.
The main thing I draw issue with is the fact many states are not swing states. If I live in Alabama, what are the odds that biden wins that state?
Tell me, if I live in alabama, will my vote for biden influence the election at all? Or will it come down to voters in michigan or florida or some other swing state.
I do understand the meme, but I also understand that swing states decide the election. Your impact of your vote is determined by your location.
Before I respond, I just need to repeat back to you the argument you’ve made here. Upon reading it, if you really want to continue, let me know and I’ll give you a full response:
“I take issue with the point communicated by this 4-panel comic strip, because some people live in Alabama”
I mean, that’s one way to read the argument, but it isn’t the one I was making. It seems like you are misrepresenting me intentionally.
As you should probably know, votes for the president are not done by people in their states. They are done by electors in the electoral college.
These electors, as per tradition, vote for the victor in their state’s election on the president.
If I live in a deep red state like Alabama, the majority is already voting for Trump. If I want to change that, I won’t be doing that by voting or shitposting on lemmy, I’d have to tireless campaign for a president I don’t like.
You brought up florida in a previous comment, specifically the election with bush. I’m sure you know that florida is a swing state, and therefore is going to be down to the wire on some elections, right?
Alabama is just an example. I don’t live in Alabama, but my state has barely swapped colors in the past, and certainly wont any time soon. Same with New York, or Montana, or Mississippi, or Texas, or many others.
So, to rephrase what I said in the 2nd paragraph more focused language, will my vote matter if I live in a deep red/blue state? Or will the election come down to swing states?
Edit: i’ve reread what you said and jesus fucking bad faith argument batman. You literally ignored half of what I said to smugly say not everyone lives in the one example state I used
Edit: I’ve pared down my original comment here because after reading it, it came off way too harsh. Hopefully nobody read it.
The meme is intended to convey that withholding a Biden vote could result in a trump victory, and that “teaching Biden a lesson” at the cost of “having a fascist state” is a bad trade.
Your issue is that, it is possible that some peoples votes don’t matter at all based on their zip code.
I don’t know how else to put this: you aren’t refuting the central thesis. You’re on a tangent that AT BEST concludes with “well, this doesn’t apply to EVERYONE… But it still definitely applies to SOME”
It’s not that people’s votes possibly don’t matter because of their zip code. It’s that peoples votes don’t matter because of their zip code. There’s a lot of bullshit going on with voter suppression, shittily written constitutions, and how representatives are calculated, but the electoral college itself is what decides the election, not the popular vote. And with the electoral college, your location is determinate of how much your vote matters in the election.
The thing is, that does refute the thesis.
If the thesis is “You withheld the one vote that would have prevented fascism”, was true, we would either be using a popular vote system for president, which we literally don’t, or the person would have to be in a singular swing state that decides the election. This means that the thesis is only true for those who live in swing states, due to the presence of the electoral college.
I googled the current swing states, and I got Georgia, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Wisconsin, Nevada, and New Mexico. The current population of the US is somewhere above 330 million, and the population of the swing states listed is, according to my napkin math, 55 million. I’m assuming the population of voters proportionally is roughly equivalent state to state.
That being said, this means there’s roughly 1/6th of Americans whose votes would be representative of this meme.
To call the experience of 5/6ths of Americans tangential is a little silly.
The irony is palpable that you’re describing voter suppression as a factor, while literally actively participating in it. Using social media to convince people that their votes aren’t important is quite literally an act of voter suppression. Trying to convince people that withholding their vote could not impact outcome, is voter suppression.
You are literally no different than a robocall telling people that the polling stations have closed early. You are a bad faith actor. For anyone who didn’t actually read the Muler report and were unsure about what “Russian interference” actually looked like, it’s this. It’s exactly this.
DNC and DNC shills expecting free votes because they’re democratically funding a genocide instead of fascistly funding a genocide
You morons in November when Trump inevitably wins due to horrendous voter turnout in November from former Democrat voters and not because the 5 communists in the USA made the difference
It’s like a copy paste of Trump v Clinton and clearly no one learned their lesson from literally 8 years ago.
Well, I doubt even now citizens of any former Soviet Republic can vote for Biden.
I wonder what their idea of the outcome is.
Tankie: “I convinced 20 Democratic Party voters to stay at home (and did the same for 0 Republican Party voters). Wait until Democratic politicians see that more voters favored the far right party. Then they’re going to move left and fall on their knees and beg me to forgive them.”
(Cue scene: swastika-adorned tanks rolling past the window)
“Stupid liberals, unwilling to fight the fascists like us true leftists.” (Watches tanks and twiddles thumbs.) (Fetches keyboard.) “Let’s tell everyone online that it’s their own fault and they deserve this.” (Sudden sound of harsh knocking on front door.)
At best, their actions will “only” cause another grid-locked presidency where progressives can’t get their reforms to pass (which will then be used as the reason to abandon the likely last line of non-violent defense against fascists).
At this point you guys should just take all the time it takes to argue “tankies” for HOURS at end and make these low tier memes and just form your own political party.
I don’t think you understand, having a fascist shithead in charge of the US is precisely the goal of these fine folks on .ml and .hexbear.
They want the us to be as equally fucked and censured as china. It’s their only hope for not being the internet’s laughingstock for another couple decades.
stop giving us shitty choices
these guys want fascist shit heads
stop giving us shitty choices
*these guys want fascist shit heads *
“I’m unhappy with the shitty choices, so I’m going with the fascist shithead” is a rather fascist thing to say.
Reading compression isn’t a strength if that’s how you read it
Reading compression isn’t a strength if that’s how you read it
At the risk of getting downvoted into oblivion, this is not a fair representation of their complaints or desires. Maybe a minority of them want what you described.
It’s actually possible for our government to be more democratic if we could remove capitalist interference from our government structure.
It’s not a good faith argument. They don’t want to question their support for Biden. So instead of actually thinking critically they make shit up so they can dismiss any criticism that would force them to actually think.
The problem is, yes government could and I would argue should be more democratic. But that isn’t how Leninism/stalinism/Maoism works. We have problems with adequate representation with two parties. Those groups want only one. And traditionally that party doesn’t take kindly to dissent. Rather than listening and adjusting policy to better address people. They simply exclude you from society if you’re lucky. Lock you up, brutalize you. And if they don’t think they’ve adequately broken you, kill you.
We need to remove authoritarian and private control of government. Capitalism would follow eventually. The problem is. That’s impossible with capitalists and ML alike.
I’d be happy with a social democracy that emphasizes a mixed economy with strong social welfare programs funded by progressive taxation. Examples include the Nordic countries (Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden).
I don’t know how to accomplish that though because the farther we slip into a class dictatorship, the harder it will be to enact progressive taxation. We’d all vote yes to tax the 1% richest more, but that will never be on any ballot for us to choose.
That would absolutely be a great start. But only that. A starting point.
Taxing the rich can be on the ballot. The problem is we often spend too much time fighting amongst ourselves letting the ownership class walk away with everything while we tussle over scraps. They’ve succeeded in putting a large portion of the population into a nihilistic Fugue state. Only trying to destroy things and hurt the group they’ve been told is the Boogeyman. Not improving things for themselves or others. As easy and as fun as it can be to ridicule conservatives importantly thought out plans and ideology. We need them. And they need us. If we want to make anything better that is. We need to break through the cynicism and nihilism and convince them that there is a way for things to be better.
It’s not a small task by any means.
The .ml users who are urging everyone to not vote don’t agree.
It is obvious that it would be easier to reach better governance without having a wannabe dictator in the executive branch appointing theocratic clowns into judgeships. But they actually want Donald in there to destabilize the US so that China can gain ground.
They don’t even deny it, I get reactions from them on a spectrum from “based based based based” to “any amount of collateral damage to minorities or surrounding countries is acceptable as long as colonialists are being genocided.”
True, it’s not black or white, there’s a spectrum of beliefs within those communities.
