I’d say that the last half of your message uses the logic of liberal Zionism.
Jewish people are not an oppressed group and they benefit directly from Zionism and the Zionist entity. Not only do they materially benefit but they are the ones pulling the trigger, dropping the bombs, and committing genocide in the name of expanding a project of jewish supremacy.
Half of the total world population of Jewish people live in israel and over 80 percent of the diaspora in the imperial core support the continued existence of israel. Judaism and Zionism are linked, not because of some magical or eugenicist understanding of race science but because Jewish people materially benefit from their involvement in a Jewish supremacist project in much a similar way that white people in the US benefit from their involvement in their white supremacist project of settler colonialism and being the world hegemon of capitalism-imperialism.
Being racist to Jewish people is like saying you’re being racist against white people.
We are over a century into the Zionist project, decades into the development of the Zionist entity, and years into the lastest phase of the genocide and the continued centering of the feelings of those commiting a genocide is an example of liberal Zionism. Jewish people are not victims of Zionism. Their culture is not being consumed by some other. Zionism is the ideology of a settler colonial project that seeks to create a racial hierarchy where Jewish people benefit from their oppression of Arab people.
Being racist to Jewish people is like saying you’re being racist against white people.
You could probably fairly make this comparison between zionism and white, but not Jewish and white. White is an identity constructed solely for the purpose of oppressing others in a racial hierarchy, not unlike how zionism is an identity constructed for the purpose of justifying colonization and genocide. Judaism is neither of those things now or inherently, but because zionism has, for lack of a better way to put it, largely taken ownership of Judaism, it’s easy for people to conflate the two. Judaism and being Jewish has non-oppressive reason to exist beyond zionism. Zionism has no good reason to exist. This is what I mean when I talk about it being subsumed. It’s not that I’m saying Jewish people are all oppressed victims, else I wouldn’t be saying things like:
To put it in religious terms, the price of this ephemeral, worldly “safety” through settler colonialism is nothing less than their souls.
What I’m trying to dig into is the dialectical relationship and the lies of zionism. Zionism operates on this false idea of securing Jewish safety, while creating the conditions for Jewish people to be re-victimized all over again when israel finally falls and people have a hard time seeing the difference between zionist and Jewish because of how deeply they have been tied together in order to further the settler project. The US is the biggest ally of israel, yet also had significant business ties to Nazi Germany, worked with Nazis after the war in order to further anti-communism. It’s also worth noting that not all zionists are Jewish.
This is the naked opportunism of colonialism and imperialism, seizing on the harm done to one group to make use of it for harm done to another. Allying based on what helps the empire dominate, not based on consistent ideology, much less principle or ethics. The more Jewish people stand up and separate themselves out from zionism, reject it outright, and there are some trying, the harder it is for the zionist project to survive and the easier it will be for Jewish people in the world to get by without getting victimized again. But the more Jewish people embrace zionism, insist safety is found in it, in backing a project that shamelessly does genocide and reproduces a cult culture of constant wartime, the more things will unravel for Jewish people going forward.
When I talk of forcibly separating, it will probably have to be by force. Either through external force applied to them, or via a militant rupture between zionist elements and Jewish people who reject zionism (or more likely some of both). Else the limited protestations there are among Jewish people will be lost in the sea of things as little more than “peaceful protest”.
Does that make sense or are we on a different page?
Edit: Also, this isn’t with the intent to “center the suffering of Jewish people” or something. The whole reason it was the topic of my reply is because the thread is about allegations of “rising antisemitism” and the point is to dissect the realities of what is actually going on and why, rather than going with the narrative zionists provide.
My apologies for the accusations on the coddle aspect. We are also in different internet bubbles but I am wary of discussions around the topic of antisemitism because it has been used by Liberal Zionists to basically sow discord on that aspect. Many of Palestinians and Arabs in my bubble who don’t engage in any antisemitism/anti-jewish sentiments at all are often the target of Liberal Zionists accusations of antisemitism/anti-jewish sentiments when they point out Jewish supremacist aspects in Zionism.
I trust you to have the answers which is why I replied the way that I did. This clarification helped where the initial paragraph at least read off in my end as a little close to excusing them while playing lip-service to Palestinians in the last sentence.
Fair enough, thanks for sharing your thoughts on it. I was concerned, in light of the responses, that I was coming off too apologist about it, but also somewhat confused because I didn’t know in what way.
I suspect the difference is you and some others are coming more from the perspective of dealing with zionist bullshit often and I’m coming more from the perspective of seeing headlines about nazi rallies / resurgent neo-nazis (however rarely), which looks indicative of some resurgent hatred of Jewish people in an opportunistic manner, not just anti-zionism. Both are part of the whole picture, but the priority of course is liberation for Palestine and I would rather others call me out on it if my language seems too apologist of zionism than let it slide.
I’d say that the last half of your message uses the logic of liberal Zionism.
Jewish people are not an oppressed group and they benefit directly from Zionism and the Zionist entity. Not only do they materially benefit but they are the ones pulling the trigger, dropping the bombs, and committing genocide in the name of expanding a project of jewish supremacy.
Half of the total world population of Jewish people live in israel and over 80 percent of the diaspora in the imperial core support the continued existence of israel. Judaism and Zionism are linked, not because of some magical or eugenicist understanding of race science but because Jewish people materially benefit from their involvement in a Jewish supremacist project in much a similar way that white people in the US benefit from their involvement in their white supremacist project of settler colonialism and being the world hegemon of capitalism-imperialism.
Being racist to Jewish people is like saying you’re being racist against white people.
We are over a century into the Zionist project, decades into the development of the Zionist entity, and years into the lastest phase of the genocide and the continued centering of the feelings of those commiting a genocide is an example of liberal Zionism. Jewish people are not victims of Zionism. Their culture is not being consumed by some other. Zionism is the ideology of a settler colonial project that seeks to create a racial hierarchy where Jewish people benefit from their oppression of Arab people.
You could probably fairly make this comparison between zionism and white, but not Jewish and white. White is an identity constructed solely for the purpose of oppressing others in a racial hierarchy, not unlike how zionism is an identity constructed for the purpose of justifying colonization and genocide. Judaism is neither of those things now or inherently, but because zionism has, for lack of a better way to put it, largely taken ownership of Judaism, it’s easy for people to conflate the two. Judaism and being Jewish has non-oppressive reason to exist beyond zionism. Zionism has no good reason to exist. This is what I mean when I talk about it being subsumed. It’s not that I’m saying Jewish people are all oppressed victims, else I wouldn’t be saying things like:
What I’m trying to dig into is the dialectical relationship and the lies of zionism. Zionism operates on this false idea of securing Jewish safety, while creating the conditions for Jewish people to be re-victimized all over again when israel finally falls and people have a hard time seeing the difference between zionist and Jewish because of how deeply they have been tied together in order to further the settler project. The US is the biggest ally of israel, yet also had significant business ties to Nazi Germany, worked with Nazis after the war in order to further anti-communism. It’s also worth noting that not all zionists are Jewish.
This is the naked opportunism of colonialism and imperialism, seizing on the harm done to one group to make use of it for harm done to another. Allying based on what helps the empire dominate, not based on consistent ideology, much less principle or ethics. The more Jewish people stand up and separate themselves out from zionism, reject it outright, and there are some trying, the harder it is for the zionist project to survive and the easier it will be for Jewish people in the world to get by without getting victimized again. But the more Jewish people embrace zionism, insist safety is found in it, in backing a project that shamelessly does genocide and reproduces a cult culture of constant wartime, the more things will unravel for Jewish people going forward.
When I talk of forcibly separating, it will probably have to be by force. Either through external force applied to them, or via a militant rupture between zionist elements and Jewish people who reject zionism (or more likely some of both). Else the limited protestations there are among Jewish people will be lost in the sea of things as little more than “peaceful protest”.
Does that make sense or are we on a different page?
Edit: Also, this isn’t with the intent to “center the suffering of Jewish people” or something. The whole reason it was the topic of my reply is because the thread is about allegations of “rising antisemitism” and the point is to dissect the realities of what is actually going on and why, rather than going with the narrative zionists provide.
My apologies for the accusations on the coddle aspect. We are also in different internet bubbles but I am wary of discussions around the topic of antisemitism because it has been used by Liberal Zionists to basically sow discord on that aspect. Many of Palestinians and Arabs in my bubble who don’t engage in any antisemitism/anti-jewish sentiments at all are often the target of Liberal Zionists accusations of antisemitism/anti-jewish sentiments when they point out Jewish supremacist aspects in Zionism.
I trust you to have the answers which is why I replied the way that I did. This clarification helped where the initial paragraph at least read off in my end as a little close to excusing them while playing lip-service to Palestinians in the last sentence.
Fair enough, thanks for sharing your thoughts on it. I was concerned, in light of the responses, that I was coming off too apologist about it, but also somewhat confused because I didn’t know in what way.
I suspect the difference is you and some others are coming more from the perspective of dealing with zionist bullshit often and I’m coming more from the perspective of seeing headlines about nazi rallies / resurgent neo-nazis (however rarely), which looks indicative of some resurgent hatred of Jewish people in an opportunistic manner, not just anti-zionism. Both are part of the whole picture, but the priority of course is liberation for Palestine and I would rather others call me out on it if my language seems too apologist of zionism than let it slide.