This is from a regularly scheduled Everglades Bike Club weekend ride in Key Biscayne, USA, on a 10km stretch of road, and all the drivers know to expect it will be there in the mornings.
South Parks season premiere hasn’t aged at all
South America*
This is on the north end of Key Biscayne, an island connected by bridge to Miami.
They renamed South Park to South America.
This is a tough one for me. On one hand, they’re blocking the whole road. On the other hand, I fucking hate cars. Why can’t we have bullet trains in this country? That question is rhetorical. I know why.
Bikes are allows equal use of the road. So I’m curious how they’re blocking the whole road. That’s like a couple of slow trucks on there. Would you think it’d be fine to dangerously drive on the grass to get around them?
Do you know how to drive? Slow cars in this situation should be only taking up the slow lane. If bikes are allowed equal use, they should be taking up the slow lane only.
Everyone would be equally pissed if there were 4 cars driving slow in both lanes and blocking everyone.
P.S. this doesn’t apply if it’s a scheduled event and the road is shut down.
No, but it would be fine to safely drive on grass to get around them, though slightly assholish if its so wet/vehicle so heavy you’re damaging the grass.
This is a tough one for me. On one hand, they’re blocking the whole road
how do you feel when a bunch of cars block an entire road, which they do, every fucking day, also a tough one ?
I said I hate cars. Why do you want to argue about it? In a perfect world we’d have electric trains and we wouldn’t be having this debate if you want to call it that. As for the quote, I was kind of just talking out of my ass. No need to make a big deal out of it.
Edit: Sorry if this comes off as rude sounding. That wasn’t my intention.
The cars should be driven into the ocean because they are incapable of not blocking traffic. These particular bicyclists are choosing to be as bad as cars and therefore are as deserving of scorn.
Based on most of the comments here so far, you all hate cyclists more than cars.
I feel like this thread made it to some frontpages. Never good when that happens.
What I really seem to hate is just people with zero situational awareness operating any sort of vehicle.
Personally speaking because I am both. Cyclists don’t obey the rules of the road to the same rigor as a car. Both parties are open to hate.
Now that said, only one of them is in a 2 tonne death machine.
maybe its my metro area but I feel motorists are more likely to not follow the rules. There is cyclists but its a pretty low percentage. The ones that do though really do and make themselves a nuisance. There was a guy that would just ignore the red light on a major intersection. like two four lanes. during rush hour because I guess he felt since everything is slowed up he can just fuck right through.
Depending on your local that could be perfectly legal. It’s called an Idaho Stop. You can treat stop signs as yields and red light like a stop sign. You’re not supposed to treat a red light as a yield so if he’s doing that it’s illegal everywhere as far as I know.
My 2 cents is the closer to a downtown you get the better the drivers are because of proximity however the cyclists are shit at obeying rules. Outside downtown cars are horrible in respecting cyclists who usually end up better at obeying laws because of the speeds.
You’re actually right and it goes down to how drivers respond to their surroundings. Areas with narrower streets, more traffic, and more pedestrians encourage drivers to be more observant passively.
When you have a wide, clear, straight road people pay less attention.
It’s a psychology thing and some people are trying to design roads around the concept
Nah, you’re correct. Any time a study is done on this it finds that either drivers and cyclists break the law at similar rates, or drivers break it more.
There’s also the difference in why they do it. Drivers break the law out of convenience. Because it’s easier to do, or because it gets them where they’re going faster. Cyclists sometimes do that, but far more than drivers, they’re likely to do it because it’s safer. Because laws are often made for car drivers in ways that aren’t appropriate to cyclists, and so breaking the law is often safer. The classic example is treating stop signs as give way signs in places that haven’t implemented an Idaho Stop rule.
Sources:
Super thank you! Sources!
Indeed, why should they? The rules of the road where made expressly for cars, not bikes, and there are several states which sensibly make carve outs for bicycles and motorcycles.
But, as you point out, the risk for breaking the rules–real or perceived–fall entirely on the cyclist, so I absolutely see no equivalence.
Ya don’t break a rule; the car runs you over because distracted driver.
Ya break a rule to avoid distracted driver; you get ran over because your rule breaking in your tiny and light bicycle triggered the road rage of someone in a SUV whose control was entirely based on spite and the fact everyone else should follow rules without exception (that the state legislature carved for cyclists to try to minimize their deaths).
Being a cyclist commuter is fun, much recommended.
The problem with cars is that they immediately make every other form of transportation incredibly shitty.
Pedestrians and cyclists get killed. Buses get stuck in traffic.
I hate cars, but what am I supposed to do? Getting out of my car is just an invitation to get killed by one. And if I wanted to live entirely without a car, I’d have to move to a city, where I would never be more than 12-feet away from cars and have to cross a road every block, risking my life because of shitty fucking cars.
When we say, “We’re not saying get rid of cars, we’re just saying we need options”, to not scare the carbrains, well, the only way to have real options (ie safe roads) is to have roads entirely without cars.
I would love for my city center to become car free. There is like a square mile that would make so much sense.
YUUP YUP YUP!
We have to get rid of these ‘reforms after reforms’ for car centric infraatructure and for car company, oil company, and plastics companies lobbyists because they will mever make us all happy. We CANNOT reform society in its current form to allow us to use cars and for all other people who use other forms of transportation to also be happy inside most municipalities. We are doing this right now and most of us are unhappy about our transportation. Car users get stuck in traffic, create traffic, and those who dont use cars get mowed down by them like its air.
WE NEED COMPLETE REVOLUTION. Reform will nnevevr work. We. Need. Revolution.
We have to completely revolutionize how we use our roads , transporarion paths , and transportation methods , and how we construct or even demolish different transporation infrastructure.
Making reforms around cars will lead us nowhere. Cars have always been a deadly or time consuming problem for all other people who use other forms of transportation…so…revolutionize society so that cars are so rare that ONLY the governmental officials or people out in VERY open areas using cars recreationally ever get to use them. Ban cars from the majority of the innards of EVERY municipality. YOU DONT HAVE TO BUILD CAR-CENTRIC INFRASTRUCTURE CITIES AND TOWNS WHEN IT IS PRACTICALLY ILLEGAL FOR CARS TO BE OPERATED INSIDE THEM.
Cyclists don’t obey the rules of the road to the same rigor as a car
Bullshit
Spend a few years downtown in any metropolitan area and see if you change your tune. The amount of cyclists (myself included) who drive through lights or advances, don’t indicate directions, wrong way on a one way street, cutting through parking lots or alleys the list goes on and on.
No, it’s objectively bullshit. It’s been studied many times and the result always proves that carbrained nonsense to be bullshit.
Drivers break the law all the time. They run blatant reds. They fail to stop when safe to do so at a yellow. They speed. They ignore stop signs. They fail to give way to pedestrians. The pass cyclists too close. They fail to indicate correctly at roundabouts more often than they do it correctly.
The only difference is people are too carbrained to even notice these. Oh, and the reasons for it (cyclists tend to break the law for their own safety unlike car drivers who do it for convenience) and the consequences when they do (cyclists endanger nobody except occasionally themselves, drivers endanger everyone around them).
Makes sense actually, the rules of the road were made almost explicitly for cars and in many cases following all of them can put a cyclist in serious danger.
“Cyclists don’t obey the rules of the road to the same rigor as a car.”
Because you don’t need a license for a bike, the rules are there because cars and motorbikes are incredibly dangerous compared to walking or biking (for everyone involved). A large part of people who bike don’t know the rules because they don’t need to, just the basic stuff and having situational awareness is enough. The issue is that many in all above mentioned kinds don’t have that, they’re either too dumb, thinking about something else or using their phones etc. But it’s way more important for the people who are in control of the most dangerous vehicles to be the ones who know and follow the rules.
Most cars don’t obey the rules of the road for shit. Case in point above
Even in the post, one driver freaks out and does this unhinged maneuver, all the others stay behind the bikes. So fuck off with “most cars”.
Yeah and case in point a cyclist is rarely going to kill someone in a head on collision but a car will.
there’s a lot of vroom vroom apologists who spend their days on these threads. it’s wild.
Its like those people who go to the childfree forums and act like a ‘genocide’ is being committed against parenrs and wanna-be-parents …
jfc forreal? that’s a thing?
how do these fucks have so much free time?
bro hit up childfree lemmy or even r/childfree on reddit iif you can stand the new reddit and see for yourself.
Survey after survey shows that most people are currently parents or want to be parennts in the future… WHAT GENOCIDE?!
fucking hell…
8 billion aren’t enough people in the world, nah, it’s genocide to not add to the problem… wow.
I’m a cyclist and when I’m on a bike I try to use the road responsibly. If I’m no a long climb going 10km/h with cars behind me I try to stop when possible and let them pass safely. I don’t ride next to someone else chatting and blocking the entire lane. I don’t ride on roads with speed limits over 60km/h. I would never do what they are doing in the video. It’s just disrespectful and causing unnecessary tension between drivers and cyclists.
Have you seen how many cyclists there are? Like, should they all ride in line, and let cars pass at an opportunity? What kind of opportunity would that be? 😅 How’s that supposed to work out?
In Germany there’s a law, that 15 cyclists and above are allowed (and should) use the whole lane in a pack, because it slows and obstructs traffic less than 15 or 100 cyclists in a line. Nobody could ever pass that line correctly and safe.
And
. I don’t ride on roads with speed limits over 60km/h
So, nobody should cycle from village A to village B, ever?
From what I’ve seen in Germany many villages are linked by bike trails anyway. Usually the bike trails are more direct than the major highways anyway
Many are, many are not ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. You’re not allowed on highways anyway with the bike, but the normal country roads are usually 100 kph or at least 80 kph.
In my cycling club, when we plan events, if we know there will be this many cyclists we work with police and close the roads. This is the last one we did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-Kfz9S6h4M You can check out the security measures. And we’re just a local club. We do things like this about 3 times a year. Other local clubs do the same. Having as many cyclist as in the video with no security is amateur hour and it’s irresponsible. My guess is they know this and they are doing this on purpose as a form of protests or something
So, nobody should cycle from village A to village B, ever?
In Spain the minimum velocity is half of the speed limit so a car has to go at least 45km/h on 90km/h road. Going slower than that causes dangerous situations. Bikes have to go on the shoulder and I don’t think that’s safe or responsible. I can get to all the villages using secondary, 60km/h roads.
Go ride on the shoulder up the mountain from Benagalbón to Almáchar and tell me how that goes. You clearly aren’t riding anywhere near Málaga.
What the fuck is that supposed to mean? Fuck off with your gate kipping. I cycle where I want.
It means there is no fucking shoulder.
I can get to all the villages using secondary, 60km/h roads.
Good for you. I don’t know of any road outside of my city that is less than 60 km/h, most are 80 or 100.
My guess is they know this and they are doing this on purpose as a form of protests or something
Well, from the short video, they have at least seemingly safety motorcycles, because the video is filmed from one. But it might as well be a protest, e.g. for better cycling infrastructure, what about it? If some lunatics protest in my city for whatever the fuck I also can’t just drive through them, just because I don’t like their topic or that they’re occupying the road. From my view, if this is a political thing, people need to accept it even more, because voicing an opinion and taking it literally to the street is important.
But it might as well be a protest, e.g. for better cycling infrastructure, what about it?
Then they are being disruptive on purpose. They are not trying to share the road responsibly, they are not doing this because that’s the best and safest way to do it.
I still don’t see them being very disruptive. They’re part of traffic and use the road, probably as intended with such a large group of cyclists. Doesn’t excuse or warrant assholish (and dangerous) behavior of car drivers.
And, once again, 'cause you just skipped over that part. If it is a protest, the other participanis still would need to accept it, because this is how protest works in a society.
Of course they would have to accept it. What do you think I’m saying? That it’s ok to just ram them? But it’s actually not how protests works in a society. You apply for a permit and ensure everyone safety. The law defines bases on which such permit can be denied. Courts make sure that administration fallows this laws.
And it doesn’t really matter if it’s very disruptive or just a little bit disruptive . It’s not a normal weekend bicycle ride that is a normal part of traffic. It’s done in a way that inconvenient to other people on the road. That’s the point people are making here. Not that it’s illegal (depends on local laws) or that it’s ok to murder them. Just that it’s disruptive.
They are not using the whole lane. They are using both of the lanes of this side of the road. This is a one-way road, the other is at the other side of the (large) median.
If they only used one whole lane, drivers could pass them on the left lane. There is no “opportunity” needed, they would just be driving normally on the left lane while the bikes use the right one.
The whole situation was manufactured by the bikes and could’ve easily been avoided by using the road by following the rules: traffic goes on the right lane, unless you are going meaningfully faster, in which case you temporarily go on the left lane to pass the slower traffic.
So basically, you aren’t a self centered asshole is what you are saying?
If I’m no a long climb going 10km/h with cars behind me I try to stop
Imma stop you right there. That’s not “being respectful”, it’s being a fucking pushover. The last thing you want to do while on a climb steep enough to drop you to 10 km/h is pull over and stop. Pull across to the side of there’s enough room for them to pass, sure, but keep that momentum at all costs.
That said, if this ride is on open roads, then road rules should be followed. Where I live that means two abreast (plus more if overtaking), but a blob that’s at least 5 wide in parts.
keep that momentum at all costs.
Who am I racing? It changes absolutely nothing for me. I’m not stopping in places that are bad for it but if there’s a road where I can get of the road for 5 seconds and then start again it costs me absolutely nothing to do it.
Who said anything about racing? It costs a huge amount. Starting on a 10% grade hill is an enormous amount of energy compared to just keeping going as you were, and it puts you in significant danger as you do it.
I already explained that “being able to stop” also means “being able to start later”. I have no idea why you’re so worried about my energy expenditure. Don’t worry, I will get back home even if my mountain times will be terrible.
This isn’t a confessional, it’s OK.
When they close the road for races here the cops are on every corner. This dude would’ve gotten the shaft real quick.
That’s not a race, that’s just a big and well organised group ride.
Huh! That’s actually crazy cool. I imagine they don’t have good bike paths?
I don’t think that group would fit on most bike paths safely. The speed difference for other users is too high to navigate a route like that safely. Best place for them would be a nice quiet country road, but sometimes you have to take the annoying roads to get to the good ones.
Best place for them would be a nice quiet country road, but sometimes you have to take the annoying roads to get to the good ones.
Especially on a barrier island where that highway is literally the only thru-road.
It’s Miami so no, absolutely not. And it’d be difficult to have a ride this big on a bike path.
Rarely. But that doesn’t stop shitty drivers (which I don’t consider op). My cousin lives a bit north of this, he got hit-and-run’d by an old lady driving on a grass-seperated sidewalk riding his bicycle to a fishing spot before sunrise.
Wouldn’t the road be closed for cars? At least no one died
That’s exactly what I was thinking how the fuck a car got in there the roads should be closed or marked. It seems to be a Highway to boot so there shouldn’t be a lot of options left. The guy in the car was dumb yes but the organization incompetent.
Based on other comments in here, this isn’t an organized event. It’s just a group of bikers that do this every single weekend.
So… An organized event.
Looking at their own rules:Edit: the rules they suggest: https://www.active.com/cycling/articles/10-rules-to-group-ride-like-a-pro The second one makes sense when it’s not a planned event. This video shows the complete opposite, the cyclists take up the entire road, five in width. Which looks a lot like an event, when cars wouldn’t be allowed
Yes I don’t know if this is a governmental issue or an issue with the event organizers.
Like obviously don’t drive in the median and break traffic laws, but this kind of event not being appropriately managed is going to increase the likelihood of accidents. Mostly from assholes driving poorly
Why? Bikes are completely legal for road use. Even when there’s more than one of them. Just like cars!
That’s way too many bikes to be just taking over a road like that. By blocking all traffic your going to bring out the crazies.
It’s a race, what do you expect? 1km race with 1 bike at the time?
What kind of race doesn’t close the road it’s using?
We’re missing information here. If there’s a clearly marked sign at the entrance to the road, possibly with a redirection to an alternate route, there’s no problem with this.
We aren’t missing info. It’s a big group of bikers that do this every week. Not a race. Not an organized event.
I mean, that’s fine, but then the road should be straight up closed, not letting you get on and have to get stuck for half a mile.
I don’t see any one with race numbers pinned to their jersey.
No sanctioned race would be through a public road without traffic control. This is not how a race is handled. Yall are too stupid to realize evertone in this video is a idiot.
That’s not how you organize a race. I helped with securing a bunch of races (including La Vuelta) and if you want to occupy the whole road you close it. You don’t just say “it was scheduled so the road is ours now”.
Yea, would be better, if everyone sat in their own car, obviously. Apart only from the pollution, space problem and traffic it would generate, less exercise for those dozends (hundred) of participants, noise it would produce and less conversation and bonding. Apart from those reasons, it would be better, because the handful of people in the cars wouldnt feel left out.
By roing anything that isn’t driving and/or shooting you bring out the crazies in america apparently
Not all of us have nothing to do and nowhere to go
Yeehaw!
How about the car driving like normal? It doesn’t matter if it’s 200 bicycles or 4 cars on the road causing the traffic jama
but if its a public officially sanctioned event, which I have no idea if it is cause I seee no police oficers, then rheyre allowed to do that…
But I looked up this event on google snd I still have no idea if this is a officially sanctioned event so …
Im on nobody’s side here yet.
You think you might be on the side of the guy who thought the correct response to being delayed by less than a minute was to drive at full speed on the median?
Look, the roads are a public space that can have unlicensed and vulnerable users present, even people who are not in their right mind. Licensed drivers have to be willing to tolerate that and deal with it in safe ways.
Im on nobody’s side here yet.
I know the english language can be kinda hard but dont worry, youll get it one day. Best of wishes 🥺🤘🏿
“I’m on nobody’s side, yet,” allows for the possibility that you might yet find yourself on the side of the psychopath, you condescending jerkface. If you can’t eliminate that possibility, you’re a psycho too.
I’m surprised nobody in here commented that maybe there was an actual life or death emergency the car occupants were dealing with?
Like, fuck cars, but also maybe the driver had a real reason to do that. At least I feel like if you frame it that way it’s less infuriating. Who knows if that’s true but it makes me less mad to think that way.
entitled shits late for brunch more likely.
That driver is obviously an idiot that needs his license revoked.
That said, as a fellow cyclist, you all need to do better as well. For this large an event, there should either be a road closure, or break it up into flights. If those aren’t feasible, restrict yourselves to one lane instead of taking up both. Not excusing the drivers carelessness at all, but judging from your reaction to other comments here, your ride group’s sense of entitlement is a problem as well.
Never seen so much “As a cyclist” in one thread. Almost everyone is a cyclist at some point even if you don’t like them, they’re ubiquitous and useful, but most people never seem to speak “As a cyclist” until they need to throw an anti-cyclist opinion at a group ride. It’s like saying “As a pedestrian”. It doesn’t give your uncritical social grudges any further weight. One second, maybe I can find an honorary cyclist medal to pin on you or something to make it official.
I’m guessing that’s because, like me, they’ve given up on anything in “Fuck Cars” being a reasonable discussion. I commented to provide a balanced perspective on the situation, rather than just shake my fist at the stupid driver. Guess I should have known not to bother here. I don’t bother arguing with folks on the internet, so this’ll likely be my last post here. Enjoy your echo chamber.
It’s not my ride group. I’m not even in the same hemisphere, let alone the same ride group
Nah
Someone should have thrown a rock at the car
No idea why that’s necessary. This is quite common in my country.
Allowed by law here, if you take certain precautions. Judging from the motorcycle, it seems this group also took precautions to keep the group safe.
It’s funny how you complain about entitlement.
You don’t know the driver’s life. His wife could be in labor, he could be trying to visit a dying loved one, or rush home because he left the stove on.
Besides, it’s the law that slow moving traffic stay on the right side.
And stfu about safety. Do you how many alligators are in this video literally just off screen? At least 50.
You don’t know the driver’s life. His wife could be in labor, he could be trying to visit a dying loved one
And then risks their own life pulling this stunt?
Not sure what your point is. A traffic jam is way more common and then the driver would be completely stuck.
Clearly there’s also no legal issue, as OP said this is a weekly event. Since Americans are masters at complaining, it would have long been stopped.
It’s illegal, but the cops are too busy beating the shit out of minorities to care about cyclists blocking the flow of traffic. If you’re not from the states, you have no right to speak on the traffic law here.
When one has to experience a moment without a privilege or entitlement they’ve become used to, it can feel to them like an grievous injury.
I don’t have a dog in this race, so not really complaining about anything. I’m just pointing out that regardless of what’s legal, this is a failure of both safety and courtesy. Slower traffic stay to one side, let others go by.
The WHOLE conflict here is caused by entitlement. The cyclists think they are entitled to the whole road, through force of numbers, herd mentality, or whatever. The car feels entitled to drive how ever fast he wants and safety be damned. The car is obviously MORE in the wrong, but the whole situation could have been avoided.
Sounds like you do indeed have a dog in this race. It’s crazy how cyclists can use the road in complete accordance of the law and be called entitled when a car is made to slow down behind them for a few minutes. No law is being broken here, the cyclists are in fact taking the full lane, as driver training and regulation suggest that they should. It’s for their own protection since, as you can see, Florida motorists can be complete psychopaths.
At first I thought it’s a good idea. Now I think that maybe cars flying past may be a problem if something happens and someone falls or just swings out of lane, then it would require a bigger space, but cars will likely just think that this space could also be used and fill it.
On the other hand, I know nothing about how to organise these safely, and I’m always afraid of cars, so prefer to be on separate bike lanes whenever possible
Cars are constantly getting into bicyclist spaces, I never had so many close calls as when I was wearing high vis in the bike lanes. I swear they swerve to see how close they can get.
Seeing how wide the road is, there’s no reason to block the whole road in one direction. This doesn’t seem to be a competition, just a casual ride. Block a single lane then.
Heaven forbid; not the whole road?!
I mean. They are using an entire thing when they don’t need to and other people also want to use the thing.
Are you fucking idiots unaware of which community you’re on?
Oh no, you’re get to your destination marginally later. The tragedy.
Or we could, you know, share.
Try telling that to drivers in traffic. No car has ever moved out of my way on a bike and I’ve been cycling for decades.
They are sharing the road. Nobody is blocking the cars from using the road. They’re just upset they can’t go faster.
This is on the immediate approach to a short but narrow causeway where it would be in the group’s safety interest to not get broken up or pushed onto the gutter on the bridge.
All the LOCAL drivers know to expect it. If someone is from out of town they would have no way of knowing that happens on that road unless there are signs posted or something. The dude is still a dipshit though.
Yeah, indeed, the argument of “everyone knows it” makes no sense, best case most locals know about it indeed (but even locals that usually aren’t there at that time of the week probably never heard of it either).
These people are idiots. I would never cycle with these morons. There’s too much wrong with this picture. I don’t blame the car wanting to get out of this cluster fuck and they had the courtesy of honking in a way to say passing on your left. One moron falls over and ULTRA-KILL. I don’t know what moron in this group thought that with that many riders that there shouldn’t be a spare lane to attempt to avoid catastrophic accidents.
I ride my motorbike with thousands of motorbikes and bicycles in just as dense clusters every day. Minor contact between <400lb vehicles happens constantly without injury. When someone goes down, the worst they get is a scrape.
I have a seriouis question to ask: How many oeople in that picture actually died or ended up with oermanent injuries?
A car crash with THAT many people in vehicles would MANDATORILY lead to a dozen or so deaths.
THIS on the ither hand? I would pick this over a multi vehicle car crash any second of any day.
If this were a critical mass instead of road cyclists a lot more people would be cheering them on.
Yeah either this thread hit a lot of non-fuckcars frontpages or the carbrained hate for middle-aged men who enjoy cycling in lycra is living rent free in the heads of a lot of anti-car cyclists.
Option 3: even people who don’t think cars should exist think we should all share the road, you gain nothing from sitting in the passing lane, so it looks like you’re just being an asshole for the hell of it.
What a dickhead
They would much rather want to see 100 cars in a single line blocking the road it seems
The cyclists have every right to use that road as cars.
End of story. Grow the fuck up, motorists.
You’re going to get where you’re going a minute or two later than you wanted. Big fucking deal.
They’re not using it like cars do though. They intentionally block all of it.
What are you on, that’s literally how cars always use the road.
It’s interesting that you say this unironically. Have you ever driven through Dallas or Los Angeles?
Also, groups like this don’t have much choice but to take up the available space when riding as a group. Drivers do not navigate safely with people on two wheels, and often, drive aggressively and dangerously owing to entitlement.
Ah, right, forgot this was the US. Americans can’t do shit without trying to kill their neighbours lmao
In the civilized world, you could just use a single lane and people would pass by, slowing down from the posted speed limit to do so.
Failed to be anti-bike, fell back on being anti-American. Hey, at least you’re anti-something 🤷
You’re not wrong.
I wish our road sense was closer to Europeans and Asian cultures, but here it actually makes perfect sense for cyclist groups to take extreme measures to ensure their safety.
So do cars
