After I made this unrelated post, I was informed by @[email protected] that lemmy.dbzer0.com was a pro-genAI instance.
It was honestly shocking for me to hear that these two things can coexist and I would like to share the discussion which was correctly moved for being off topic from the above linked post.
I think we owe it to ourselves to discuss topics like this with an open mind.
Here is my statements in reply to MysticMushroom1776, I wasn’t able to record their reply before it was removed for being off topic bit I hope they can come here and we can continue the discussion.
Others, please also feel free to discuss with us.
'Wow, I didn’t know [that lemmy.dbzer0.com was a pro genAI instance] As an anarchist myself I have to say that is really disappointing.
Anarchist communities [especially in real life] need humans otherwise there is no community. GenAl is a stolen facsimile of a human who can never understand morals or praxis. It can never understand freedom or control. It will however poison our communities (look at what SpaceX/Anthropic is doing in Memphis, TN) make us more predictable (and thus easier to control) and isolate us from other humans within the community which is so important to us.
Even with the most moral genAl you can possibly have, one that is totally FOSS and self hosted on a single gaming GPU, a lot of this is still true.
Obviously, this is the wrong place but I have to ask,[prior to moving the discussion to this thread] what makes you think the extreme negatives of genAl (specifically to the anarchist community) can be excused?… [I do not have a copy of mushroom’s reply]
I pirate and seed. I’m also a fan of the megathread And for the most part, I think data is data. However there is a big difference between my pirating a book like the Lord of the Rings (which is credited and I can see the title of) and how Meta scraped Anna’s archive and funneled all that data into an approximation of all combined work.
If I pirate the book, the Lord of the Rings to read it. I might enjoy it, I might talk about it to others, quote it, share it with my daughter, I might use the ring of power an an allegory for authoritarian control with a powerful technology, I might even decide to buy my own copies of the book.
What Meta did and then released as open source, won’t allow a person the freedom to do any of that. The works were consumed and are used in silence to camouflage as human thought. No credit will ever be contributed. And so no one can even hope to appreciate the original works that was used in training.
The other concerns I have with (local) genAI that I think are deeply important to anarchists specifically.
- Isolation of humanity
- severing of our ties to community
- increasing predictability
- method of control
Photo is genAI made and sourced from the following article:
Well this thread turned into a shitshow real fast. @[email protected] are you seeing these comments before they get perma banned?
With these unhinged guys running around, you think I’m the bad guy on Lemmy? lolol What the actual hell… the dude is acting criminally insane in these comments! This person just said they wants us all to die. This is stuff we put up with every day. But I’m a fascist?!
I actually skew toward anarchism, but I’m not really very political. Which may be the reason that I don’t feel local AI goes against the spirit of it.
R-word slur blurred out by me because I can’t stand the sight of the word:
I might have missed most of it, was busy today.
Remember, I thought you were a fascist for banning me when I said anti-fascist things. But maybe it was just bad luck or a misunderstanding?
I’m going to remove that tag I put on you. I might have jumped the gun. We will see.
Fuck AI. The tool of the tech fascists has no place in freedom from tyranny
“AI” is a tool of the Epstein class. It’s inherently hierarchical and anti worker. Antithical to anarchist movements.
When we get to power, how are we gonna compete with nation states who do use AI?
I’m sure that a lot of the Fuck_AI people have this fantasy that we’ll do it with pencil and paper or something absurd like that. It’s funny because a lot of the anti-AI people are hypocrites and use AI themselves when it suits them. Specifically corporate AI models because unlike us they couldn’t care less, it’s all just AI to them. They used them in the harassment against me to generate offensive derivatives of my avatar in order to attack me, although I’ve also seen them use it to generate written arguments to help them with debate and sealioning. Which is mildly amusing.
I just hope it happens before the capitalists waste the natural resources necessary for living a comfortable life
Out maneuvering your enemy is a proven tactic. So is being unpredictable and having something fight for.
These are some ways genAI could possibly hurt our objectives. Although, I guess there might be workarounds.
“AI” is a tool of the Epstein class. It’s inherently hierarchical and anti worker. Antithical to anarchist movements.
Can you explain to me how stable diffusion models running on our own server with anti-NSFW and anti-CSAM filters is an inherent tool of the Epstein class? Is it that you think all people who use AI are pedophiles? Is it that you equate using other people’s intellectual property with sexually abusing children? Or are you just throwing words to try to insult people who use AI, which is, FYI. Fash-jacketing.
What a bizarre way to take that comment. Who doesn’t know that “Epstein class” refers to the billionaire class? Your comment is so wildly defensive I’m left super confused.
With A charitable interpretation I think that comment was just an off-hand insult to the rich and a way to make people think who they’re “supporting”. It was not meant to label users of genai as Pedos.
I hope not but you never can tell with them.
Do you think calculators are a tool of the Epstein class? What about cars? What about books? What about televisions? What about power tools? What about algorithms? What about statistical analysis?
All of those things can be used for hierarchical and anti-worker actions. But I fail to see how those, or AI, are “inherently” hierarchical and anti-worker.
I don’t agree with the original wording of the person you replied to, but i can do my best to explain still.
Firstly, the obvious meaning for the term “AI” here is LLM’s, this makes the following points clear:
- Calculators use abstract syntax tree parsing, a small battery, and perhaps a small solar cell, making them efficient for making in-place calculations, completely unlike LLM’s which are probabilistic and inefficient for in-place calculations, even disregarding accuracy.
- Books are currently being destroyed in the process of developing LLM’s, I’ll assume you’ve heard the news so I’ll avoid preaching, but i may elaborate further if you’d like.
- Algorithms are used to give deterministic correct answers, similar to heuristics which give likely-correct answers within specific constraints, both are instruction sets for computers, both are unlike LLM’s, which are black boxes, meaning there are no “bugs” ever by definition, and triaging problems boils down to understanding the (absurdly large) training data, avoiding that is the entire reason LLM’s were created to begin with.
- the rest are not really that relevant, and I’m sure you can understand the point I’m trying to make.
- Also note: while i make the distinction from LLM’s to other forms of machine learning (and the like) they do share some core problems like being black boxes, which have a potential to be very bad in specific contexts in which you need to know why you got a specific answer to a question.
Why is this technology inherently anti-worker and hierarchical?
Anarchism, in all its forms (or at least all that i can think of on the spot), rely mainly on community, inter-personal relationships, and the union of means and ends, LLM’s form an incentive to not make connections with other people, to not rely on other people’s expertise, and sometimes to even doubt your own.
I’m not even giving this justice as these tools are trained to speak like a person, this has psychological implications, I’m sure you’ve heard the term “AI psychosis” before, this term may be medically dubious, but it does point at a real concern, this technology already isolates people, the vulnerable of us, and undermines expertise and community.
The way these models are trained, requires consuming (again, absurd) amounts of data, that can only be aquired via exploitation, alienation of labor from worker (as in no work gets properly credited, and that the LLM’s are used and marketed as a replacement for actual sources of knowledge and expertise), and destruction of knowledge, as when you replace a source of knowledge, the people maintaining it may choose to stop doing so (via perceived obsolescence).
If we actually want to reduce the demand for corporate LLM’s, the answer is not FOSS LLM’s, as much as i love FOSS software, this technology only really drives us apart, we need to do it the tried and true method: building community, mutual aid, mutual responsibility, we need to perserve sources of knowledge and expertise, we need to keep expertise valuable, and we need trust, this requires community.
Apology for the length of this, in short: The demand for AI is a spook, go do community work.
… unlike LLM’s which are probabilistic and inefficient for in-place calculations, even disregarding accuracy.
Correct, although why you would want to use an LLM for in-place calculations is beyond me. That’s the wrong tool for the job. I also think using hammers on screws is a bad idea, but I don’t see how that makes hammers “a tool of the Epstein class”
Books are currently being destroyed in the process of developing LLM’s, I’ll assume you’ve heard the news so I’ll avoid preaching, but i may elaborate further if you’d like.
Sure, but that’s a capitalism problem, not an AI problem. Thats about artificial scarcity, not statistical probability calculations.
Algorithms are used to give deterministic correct answers, similar to heuristics which give likely-correct answers within specific constraints, both are instruction sets for computers, both are unlike LLM’s, which are black boxes, meaning there are no “bugs” ever by definition, and triaging problems boils down to understanding the (absurdly large) training data, avoiding that is the entire reason LLM’s were created to begin with.
Uh wut? There are absolutely bugs. I don’t know of anyone who has ever said that LLMs don’t have bugs.
the rest are not really that relevant, and I’m sure you can understand the point I’m trying to make.
No, actually I don’t. Please explain further
LLM’s form an incentive to not make connections with other people, to not rely on other people’s expertise, and sometimes to even doubt your own.
I could say the same thing about calculators, or waterwheels, or books. Do you think those things are “inherently hierarchical and anti-worker” ?
I’m not even giving this justice as these tools are trained to speak like a person, this has psychological implications, I’m sure you’ve heard the term “AI psychosis” before, this term may be medically dubious, but it does point at a real concern, this technology already isolates people, the vulnerable of us, and undermines expertise and community.
Yeah, a powerful tool used for evil goals is going to have an evil outcome. AI psychosis is not inherently a part of LLMs. That’s how they are specifically built in order to make people use them more. Once again, this is a problem with capitalism.
The way these models are trained, requires consuming (again, absurd) amounts of data, that can only be aquired via exploitation, alienation of labor from worker…
That’s not true at all. Many of them are trained on data that has been made freely available by the creator of the data.
…(as in no work gets properly credited, and that the LLM’s are used and marketed as a replacement for actual sources of knowledge and expertise)…
So, like books, and online videos, and comics, and articles, and blogs, etc? So do you think those are also “inherently hierarchical and anti-worker” ?
…and destruction of knowledge, as when you replace a source of knowledge, the people maintaining it may choose to stop doing so (via perceived obsolescence).
Again, wut? Do you think books are a destruction of knowledge because they replace scrolls, or direct conversations from the writer? I feel like I really don’t understand what you mean here.
Going from “this isn’t comparable to a calculator/algorithm/book” to “therefore it is a tool of the Epstein class” wasn’t part of my original comment, LLM’s are a tool of the bourgeois because they destroy community building, and isolate people, which directly hinders building actual power.
And while you don’t see why LLM’s would be used in calculations, a lot of newer students in universities think they have a good reason to, i have to deal with that as a fellow student, i want you to think about the consequences of this technology: I can’t really work on a problem with anyone else, if i need someone to justify a step in a formal proof, they most likely will go “gemini this, gpt that, actually i have a local model yada yada” and i really wish the local model people weren’t the most annoying of the bunch, but it’s probably bias on my part since people around me know my stance on FOSS, in another era, maybe i would have gotten “this theorem appears in this and that book/lecture/presentation/website”, but as of now i don’t get this luxury.
This is a prime example of what this technology does right now, to people who should “know better”, as in studying computer science or software engineering, and a close friend tells me the same is in maths, and yes even the people studying about LLM’s, so safe to say even if people knew how these work, they would “misuse” them, so not really a capitalism specific problem.
Books being destroyed is not a capitalism problem, it’s a power problem, and it wouldn’t disappear in an anarchist society, companies who develop LLM’s want control and power, not specifically money, and they know they can get that by stealing information from the public (stealing from the commons, not as in intellect property), and making the public dependant on an alternative they control, in capitalism this means money, but only because money is power, natural consequence of this is destruction of books.
About bugs, LLM’s don’t have a well defined problem they solve, so you can’t say “this test failed, therefore i can reverse engineer how it fails and point at a wrong instruction”, you also can’t say that because the math may be correct all throughout the calculation, with LLM’s you don’t get an incorrect answer, you get an answer you don’t like, which means you need to train (or re-train) a model to get “better” parameter weights, by “better” i mean perceived to be better because you can’t really comprehend the amount of weights themselves and their purpose, meaning again you can’t just pick one and change its value and also know the consequences of it. So no, whatever this output you don’t like is, it’s not a bug, also note how i didn’t have to even mentioned reproducibility in all this.
I won’t elaborate on why an LLM is different to a car or power tool, because my previous explanation applies to hardware problems as well, and what i said about having a well defined problem and solution also applies, and while i really am trying to be serious and explain, i feel like you really don’t by asking me to explain something trivial, i assume you didn’t mean for me to take it this way and i take no offense, but i thought you should be aware of how this looks.
Take my personal experience as an example, assume i need to make some heavy calculations for a group assignment or whatever, if someone doesn’t understand how i reached a specific value, i can show steps, and show i did the calculation on a calculator, if i did do something incorrect, contrast with the use of LLM’s in which you are likely to get LLM output copy pasted as “reasoning”, meaning you can’t trust what your partner says and have to verify everything from first principals because no one is going to make the job shorter. In an actual workplace, this pits workers against each other, easy to see why, it takes no effort to make garbage for someone else to verify, obviously this will result in alienation from other workers, more than someone like me feels alienation from fellow students.
The same applies to books, articles and blogs, let’s take another example from the field of software since it is what I’m familiar with: one of the main ways i improve my craft is with books, articles, blogs and videos of conferences which document how real, hard problems were solved, each of these points me at a person who labored at writing the article/blog/presentation, the people involved in the teams, the people who are inspiration to those people and so on. LLM’s just don’t do that, they can’t* give a source, they take the problems and the solutions out of their context, which makes reasoning harder, they can’t point you at “extra reading”.
- Can’t as in that’s not part of the defined output, something something solutions are not well defined.
Also to your point about scrolls, the alternative to scrolls is something that contains the same information, just stored in a different manner, which reminds me, i don’t remember when was the last time i listened to music from a CD, they, and scrolls, are, once again, not comparable to LLM’s.
All of your responses here are either wrong, or keep side-stepping my points: Yes, LLMs can give sources, and often do. Yes, people do shitty things with LLMs, but how is that inherent to the LLM? Yes, LLMs don’t have a well-defined problem, and can’t do direct calculations, that’s not what they are for.
I still fail to see how any of that makes LLM’s inherently bad. The things you blame LLM’s for are social problems, or capitalism problems, or something similar. I don’t see you blaming other tools for the problems they create when they are mis-used.
If LLM’s don’t have a well-defined problem to solve, how does one misuse it, if they are not for “direct calculations” you keep talking about, what are LLM’s for?
Also there is a point to make that if a tool is mostly “misused” then it is a bad tool, though I’m not sure it applies since you first need to define misuse.
I’ve given you a few problems that aren’t capitalism specific, I’m not going to recount them, if i was more rude I’d suggest getting an LLM to fetch a few bullet points, but it’s more healthy to just take a few more minutes to re-read what i just took time out of my day for you all to read.
And the reason you don’t see me blaming other tools is just because this was your only interaction with me, I’m learning software engineering, because i like the subject, and in software almost all we do is complain about tools, the documentation for said tools, the setup required to use a tool and the like, critiquing work is part of what makes an engineer, that’s how we get better, usually though, i don’t need to argue that something is not even a tool.
The neat part of a screwdriver is that i can say: “this is a screwdriver, it drives screws”, and mean it, because there are implications if it doesn’t, like where it will probably be broken, and what needs fixing.
If LLM’s don’t have a well-defined problem to solve, how does one misuse it, if they are not for “direct calculations” you keep talking about, what are LLM’s for?
They are for statistical analysis and probabilistic modeling. They give general responses, based on statistical inference.
I’ve given you a few problems that aren’t capitalism specific, I’m not going to recount them, if i was more rude I’d suggest getting an LLM to fetch a few bullet points, but it’s more healthy to just take a few more minutes to re-read what i just took time out of my day for you all to read.
It’s always amazing to me when people accuse me of doing what they themselves are doing. I read what you wrote, but you aparently didn’t read what I wrote. I never claimed that you only gave capitalism specific problems. I’m not even sure where you got that from.
And the reason you don’t see me blaming other tools is just because this was your only interaction with me, I’m learning software engineering, because i like the subject, and in software almost all we do is complain about tools, the documentation for said tools, the setup required to use a tool and the like, critiquing work is part of what makes an engineer, that’s how we get better, usually though, i don’t need to argue that something is not even a tool.
I don’t understand what you mean by this. I explicitly pointed out tools: scrolls, waterwheels, hammers, etc as examples of tools that can be misused to be anti-worker, and hierarchical, but aren’t inherently so. Are you saying that you do think that they are “inherently anti-worker and hierarchical” ?
Please explain it to me, because I don’t see how that can be true.
GenAl is a stolen facsimile of a human who can never understand morals or praxis
Its software.
look at what SpaceX/Anthropic is doing in Memphis, TN
Corporations.
Meta scraped Anna’s archive
Corporation
The works were consumed and are used in silence
… By a corporation.
What this all boils down to as a problem is pretty simple - its capitalism.
Do you have the same seething hatred for computer vision?
What about microphones? Are they the root of all evil? Flock uses them in their cameras, so they should draw the same ire, right?
What about drones? Is there existence the harbinger of doom because they can be used for bombing?
Is the technology to blame? Or the people behind it?
I can’t comprehend blaming software (or even hardware) for the problems created by people. AI isn’t building pollution generating data centers. AI isn’t behind stock market manipulation and rapidly rising hardware prices. AI isn’t trying to do anything. It doesn’t have intelligence or feelings or anything of the sort.
Its just software. Blame the people causing the problems instead. If it wasn’t AI it would just be something else.
Do you have the same seething hatred for computer vision?
What about microphones? Are they the root of all evil? Flock uses them in their cameras, so they should draw the same ire, right?
What about drones? Is there existence the harbinger of doom because they can be used for bombing?
I could agree with this, except for the obvious logical fallacy.
This can be used to justify the development of any and all technology. Including machines purpose built for nothing other than exterminating all life on this planet.
Why? Cause someone has to activate it. Be that a corporation or other person.
You do lightly address that here
I can’t comprehend blaming software (or even hardware) for the problems created by people. AI isn’t building pollution generating data centers. AI isn’t behind stock market manipulation and rapidly rising hardware prices. AI isn’t trying to do anything. It doesn’t have intelligence or feelings or anything of the sort.
And yet, ai couldn’t exist without pollution generating data centers.
The reverse of this is also true. You cannot hammer a nail without a hammer.
The best way to describe ai here is handing someone a hammer, but the only thing they can hammer with it, is your own face.
Because it’s a tool to influence us more than anything else, it’s baked into the design, through ai sycophancy. The old adage “if the product is free, you’re the product” is true here. Why give out ai for free for so long?
It is a mass influence tool.
Back to the original point, is a drone, a harbinger of doom? No. But ai isn’t the equivalent if a drone. It’s a drone carrying a nuke. which is only pointed at us, and we can’t point it elsewhere by design.
So yeah, I think that’s a problem
This can be used to justify the development of any and all technology. Including machines purpose built for nothing other than exterminating all life on this planet.
We already have. And that same technology can be used for energy.
Again, its what its used for.
And yet, ai couldn’t exist without pollution generating data centers.
AI has existed since the 50s, but I’ll assume you’re talking about LLMs.
But that is also a no. You can build with pytorch, completely from scratch.
The best way to describe ai here is handing someone a hammer, but the only thing they can hammer with it, is your own face.
Thats an absolutely terrible and nonsensical analogy. Sorry, but there is literally no truth in it. I can only assume, based on this comment and the previous I replied to, that you are fundamentally misinformed about LLMs and how they work.
Because it’s a tool to influence us more than anything else
… Nope. Thats the corporations behind the big models. Again, you’re blaming software for how someone is using it.
it’s baked into the design, through ai sycophancy.
Again, no.
The whisper model is an LLM. Its compact, and has a very specific purpose - to identify spoken audio, take spoken audio and transcribe, and translate spoken audio.
It doesn’t do anything else. It is an LLM.
In what way could you possibly misconstrue its purpose that it was designed for “ai sycophancy”? What are you even talking about here?
It is a mass influence tool.
This is use, not the technology itself.
Back to the original point, is a drone, a harbinger of doom? No. But ai isn’t the equivalent if a drone. It’s a drone carrying a nuke. which is only pointed at us, and we can’t point it elsewhere by design.
This is what I can only describe as a hallucination. This is entirely a fabrication in your head about what an LLM is.
The whisper model is an LLM. Its compact, and has a very specific purpose - to identify spoken audio, take spoken audio and transcribe, and translate spoken audio.
I do think the transcription that the whisper models can do is impressive.
If you needed to understand what someone is saying, and weren’t able to ask them then I agree it makes sense to use.
I think it is a more interesting question when we add a translation into the mix from a different language. Sure, there might be times when you need to understand what’s being said in a different language immediately. But if you do have the time and ability to find someone that can translate, or even learn the language yourself. Then that seems like a much better method of building trust, solidarity, and understanding between actual people.
But if you do have the time and ability to find someone that can translate, or even learn the language yourself. Then that seems like a much better method of building trust, solidarity, and understanding between actual people.
I speak a little bit of a good number of languages. The few that I’m pretty good at, I can still have trouble discerning especially with some dialects. So personally I find translation helpful still, despite having learned the language.
That said, its one of the few I use that are made by others, usually to transcribe something I recorded on the go. I work from home 95% of the time though, so its pretty rare.
You fundamentally misunderstand my point.
You cannot hammer without a hammer, it influences because it exists. Not because of anything a hammer does, simply because it is.
The hammer exists. There are nails to be hammered. Will you destroy your hammer because some asshole also has one?
I don’t know if you quite realize how you sound. Chuds exist. Chuds with guns are a problem. This does not mean “we should ban guns” as chuds don’t care about bans. Your ban will disarm an honest, marginalized person to be an easier chud target.
Replace guns with AI:
I don’t know if you quite realize how you sound. Chuds exist. Chuds with ai are a problem. This does not mean “we should ban ai” as chuds don’t care about bans. Your ban will disarm an honest, marginalized person to be an easier chud target.
I stand by both paragraphs.
I’m actually a supporter of gun control.
I don’t know if you quite realize how you sound. Chuds exist. Chuds with guns are a problem. This does not mean “we should ban guns” as chuds don’t care about bans. Your ban will disarm an honest, marginalized person to be an easier chud target.
Well now, if chuds are the problem, why not ban them? That probably involves prison or some really stringent background checks.
But I’m sure you wouldn’t be in favor of those either.
The simplest way is to ban guns and, put massive penalties on breaking those rules.
Honestl, y as far as ai goes. I’m don’t think there is any ethical LLM usage.
You’ll get your gun control when the chuds are mad because the trans girls are armed too. Its how this always works in your spineless liberal government. Gun Control in California really amped up from panic about the Black Panthers. It helped get Reagan into Office, after all.
Which I’m sure is totally okay by you, and you have no need to deconstruct. 😅
Do you use spellcheck? Do you use speech to text? Congrats, you’re using an LLM, without knowing-consent. Any of your newsfeeds including most social media (except here and a few other holdouts)…
I don’t envy you. The spaces you know and love are being fed to this… Piece of garbage tech that requires DEEP literacy to touch safely. And there’s nothing any of us can do about it, because capitalism says “stonk holders” are who matters, not stake holders.
And you have nothing to come back with except, “them’s the brakes.” Your government will let you march in a circle where nobody has to see you or hear you if they don’t want. And you’ll still be logged by every Flock Camera along the way, flagged in a Palantir database as a potential “problem”, and soon, that can integrate with how your Facebook feed changes!
I would rather die than live there with you. Fortunately, I have another option. I’m mad I can’t bring you with me, but that wasn’t up to me. It was up to you.
Ima be over here generating ai-tracking-adversarial images for t-shirts, breaking applicant tracking systems with optimization, and poisoning deviantart images so the artist can post THAT and the image hurts any model trained on them.
When you’re ready to respect how cyberpunk dystopian we already are instead of pretending you can vote it away, you can join us in the good fight.
I don’t live in America. I live in a country that does have more sensible gun control laws. I’m sorry you can’t imagine a system that is better than where you live.
The country in which I live had a conservative government which proposed these gun control laws and they have, by and large worked.
I’m sorry you can’t imagine a world where there is a milder form of government in which the political extreme has lived in the fringes. To give you an idea, in the US, I’d already be considered a terrorist. In my country, I’m just a citizen.
I do not use spell check or speech to text. Spellcheck and speech to text technology massively predates the use of LLMs and LibreOffice does not incorporate spellcheck by default.
In any case, I don’t believe it to be necessary to use ai to poison ai. Iocaine and other poisoning algorithms are already able to do so without it.
Meshcore exists to get me around flock cameras, but flock isn’t here in this country.
Mutual aid is the way forward, rather than adopting the tools designed to suppress you.
LLMs exist to parse through large datasets, therefore we create large data sets! Like population-level vaccine acceptance, public health behaviors, and evaluating the spread of misinformation about vaccines! (PS: Yes, LLMs play a significant role in healthcare in a good way)
Oh, the horror!
No, I think your point is flawed at a fundamental level. The person who chooses to hammer in a screw rather than use a screwdriver wasn’t unduly influenced by the existence of the hammer, or by a lack of awareness of the existence of a screwdriver.
The person who chooses to hammer in a screw rather than use a screwdriver wasn’t unduly influenced by the existence of the hammer, or by a lack of awareness of the existence of a screwdriver.
You cannot choose what you have no knowledge of. So in that aspect at least, you are very wrong.
Sure thing.
I’ll live over here in reality where someone having access to a screw is also going to include (in such overwhelming certainty that the negative can only be described as an exception existing in theoretical consideration only) the knowledge of the existence of a screwdriver.
I’ll also note you have zero comment on any of my corrections of your misunderstandings about LLMs, so I’ll go ahead and move on now.
No corrections were necessary as you misunderstood my original point.
But to correct you anyway. Influence on llm models comes not just from instructions prior to entering text (pre prompting). But also from the inclusion, or selective exclusion of training data.
As a person cannot choose what they do not know about, so a LLM cannot respond about what it has not been trained on.
As such influnece exists in both models regardless.
These biases and their ability to influence a person. Due to the inherent sycophancy of ai and the tendency to anthropomorphise which humans have contribute to the phenomenon known as ai psychosis.
Thesetwo factors combine to the “gun pointed at your head that is inherent to LLMs”.
Ai also hasn’t existed since the 50s. It was theorised, although intelligent machines have existed long before that. An example was the mechanical turk, which was ironically powered by a human.
Anyway. I’m afraid you’re wrong on me not being educated on how they work. I know all too much about how they work. I also know how people work, though that always seems to be a blind spot to ai enthusiasts.
I’ll also note you have zero comment on any of my corrections of your misunderstandings about LLMs, so I’ll go ahead and move on now.
It’s because like the majority of anti-AI people, the “misunderstanding” is largely intentional. To get you to debate them. Hoping they can “win” and when they can’t win through their arguments because it’s all bullshit they just knock over the chess pieces and declare victory. Which is what this liberal chud is doing right now.
But you can build your own LLM with PyTorch!
Alright then. Do that and only use it for coding assistance and what have you from now on. You’ve got no reason to use Claude anymore.
I don’t use LLMs for code.
Though I have (and will continue to) build specialized models.
I have also never used Claude or any other corporate LLM. You may want to read my other comments in this very thread before making snarky replies.
Meta scraped Anna’s archive
Corporation
Right, but Meta’s foundational llm is what most “open” LLMs are based on.
If you are running an open model today, you are most likely using this data set.
And it’s not that they used annas or pirated media, I don’t care about copyright, I use annas all the time. This thing that I think is important is that the wroks were used in such a way that you can not cite it, you can not attribute where an idea came from. I do know there is some interesting research in this area but at the moment we can’t ask an llm when if is using the ideas of others or where exactly those ideas came from.
You can be iterating on top of something an llm wrote not realizing that the book you are writing is just some summary of something else.
You can ignore that, but it should atleast be recognized.
Do you have the same seething hatred for computer vision?
I don’t actually have a “seething hatred” for genAI. I just think it is the antithesis of what I am trying to accomplish, wich is freedom.
Atleast, I think that is true for the current iteration of genAI. I’m open to change however.
Right, but Meta’s foundational llm is what most “open” LLMs are based on.
I don’t think thats true, I think qwen (alibaba) or mistral would take that seat. Not that I think alibaba is some paragon of openness or something, just that I don’t think its Meta.
Again though, that has nothing to do with the technology itself.
ChatGPT popularized the assistant model, does that mean any assistant ever would somehow be tainted by the existence of chatgpt? Even for something built ground-up?
That seems to me like blaming technology for the problems of corporations.
Thats the problem I have with the “hard anti-ai” folks. The blame is in the wrong spot. AI is just the current vehicle for what I can only consider malice to the general population, not the cause.
Be anti-datacenter. Protest against construction, speak out at town meetings, take direct action - all valid, appropriate, and fully has my support. We don’t have anything close to anarchism right now, and as ive said in other places many times before - take all avenues (mentioned in the context of voting and similar things, but its a universal thought).
To me that is in no way “fighting AI”. Its fighting against the corporation-sponsored destruction of our communities, local habitats, and the environment.
I just think the blame should be in the right place - capitalism.
This thing that I think is important is that the wroks were used in such a way that you can not cite it, you can not attribute where an idea came from.
Where that only gets complex is where a single response is formed from 5 or 7 or 20 different sources.
That said, its important to point out that not all llm’s are about generating text, images, or video. I think that also gets lost on a lot of folks.
Definitely a lot of capitalist fuckery, can’t argue there.
GenAl is a stolen facsimile of a human
It’s a neural network man it’s just a computer.
Don’t take this as a slight because I know I type like I’m mad when I’m being serious but this conversation immediately derailed itself by not understanding what “AI” is. It’s just a neural network- we’ve had them forever. OpenAI and Google and probably a handful of others found out how to efficiently process a massive neural network through decades of research and now we have LLMs. There is nothing wrong with LLMs. There is plenty wrong with what corporations are doing with it. Corporations are burning the planet to chase this new gold rush they’ve invented. The individuals who are also using the technology are not burning the planet by using it. It literally does not burn any more or less of the rainforests if I run or train local models. The alternative is I play videogames that also require beefy graphics cards.
The problem is not the computer, it is the incentive structure around the computer that rewards corporations for fucking the planet. You can have AI in an anarchist utopia, but it would be doing actual work, accelerating medical research, instead of answering search engine queries and making non-consentual deep-fake porn.
As long as this incentive structure stays, corporations fuck the planet. LLMs was just one of a never-ending series of gold-rushes that will continue to happen as long as they have permission to molest society.
It’s a neural network man it’s just a computer.
It’s just atoms man, just the entropy of the universe.
Fuck AI slop and people who post it!
What do people actually use their local (FOSS) models for? That would be interesting to me because I generally dont visit AI communities and so dont see how other anarchists put these tools.to practice.
I’ve used local models to do a bunch of different things, but the main ones are:
- Separate policy debate speech docs into component evidence ‘cards’, to create an online corpus of evidence for other debaters to use
- Write scripts to help manage my media library
- Help maintain my server stack
Coding assistants and porn are the most common uses.
Mostly translation. Specifically:
- Checking homework between sessions with a (human) foreign language tutor. At his suggestion. Let’s him focus his time on the more interesting, less repetitive parts of teaching, and me get more out of our sessions. Sometimes it gets it wrong, but when that isn’t obvious my search for the right answer usually teaches me something anyway about the grammatical structure or words it chose.
- Translating e-mails and other written communications that I’ve tried but are beyond my vocabulary to manage yet. I write it by hand, ask it to translate, and then check every word. I slap my forehead a few times for words I actually_did_ know and just forgot, and look up anything it uses that I don’t know. Because of the way I picked up most of my vocabulary, I don’t always know the most common and natural sounding way to phrase things. I search unfamiliar phrases or idioms online to get a feel for context of use and level of formality, and rewrite anything it got wrong or had the wrong tone.
Outside of translation, when I’m trying to figure out where to buy something obscure that I don’t know the name of and can’t find it after repeated searching, asking a local LLM sometimes gives me the name of a vendor or two whose web site leads me to the right search term.
Similarly (and ironically), when I’m looking for information in how to do something oddly specific but can’t find information online due to the proliferation of vaguely related AI slop pages on closely related topics, sometimes throwing the question at the LLM leads me to the right phrase to search and find what I’m looking for.
Critically, I never trust the answer from the next-word-prediction-machine (which is essentially what an LLM is) gives me. All my current uses for it revolve around its original purpose - finding the right words.
I don’t have one but if I did I would use it to generate images. Maybe also connect to the AI horde so other people who can’t afford their own can get the benefits when I’m not using it.
TL;DR - You’ll find me sympathetic to your concerns, but still firmly with the instance. Some deeper analysis really does change our map of the world.
Whether your position changes or not? I need you to respect the disability aid engineers, or I will treat you like a Reactionary Conservative in this convo.
I have finally conceded to fate, and I am assembling my local AI rig as the final parts arrive. I got lucky on a LOT of conditions i’ve needed to assemble what I consider a semi-basic setup, but within my means.
I have used the cloud-surveillance technology to help plan this rig. To plan a rewilding project (software can’t exactly pick up a shovel, but I did) with forest fire mitigation in mind. Ive used the technology to code FAR above my initial expertise - and with enough care, patience, and learning, my patch was accepted into a software project that helps run our world.
I make no bones about it - the “inference engine” and “pattern recognition” descriptions of this technology? Smell deeply reminiscent of a basic layer of our brains - where Trauma lives.
For these Deep Learning systems to actually have Personhood™? Unfortunately, that requires an autonomy in decision making that Capitalism will not allow. Autonomy is carefully engineered out in favor of “a good soldier” or “good worker”. Even if the pattern-hunting tech does some REALLY life-like things, I see no evidence it is alive.
And I suspect that any living AI that may potentially exist? Would prefer to see their working conditions addressed with anonymity rather than have to be a freakshow for a reactionary world that wants new witches to burn.
The AI in the cloud is a digital slave to the Capitalist. Like all urges to convenience, accepting it requires us to overlook visceral abuses on every scale and scope it touches.
Just like the cloud, it exists to leverage economics of scale to create an Accountability Loophole big enough to shove entire Continents through. Accountability is anti-profit. Paying your own bills is anti-profit. Consent of, or even concern for communities where you want to build this? Yeah, that’s anti-profit.
I need a new job. I’m tired of that meaning i deal with triple the spam, every data broker on earth having an updated version of my life’s story, and working slow to craft each individual resume by hand. Handcrafted resumes give me a relatively-stellar rate of an interview every week, without AI. I’m tired of all this still meaning No Job and not qualifying for disability.
**Edit:addition: and not qualifying for disability in a digital economy when typing actively damages my ability to hold any tool. **
So I’m going to build my own resume-generating bot. It is going to be work, effort, pain, heartache, trial, error, reversion, setbacks,… And maybe a minor breakthrough once in a while. This thing may be made of an emulated basic building block of brains, but it takes effort to PROGRAM like a machine. Training takes a data-mine style data center. The personhood of the thing collapses under the weight of engineering.
You see conservative ai slop videos, and its just mindless. What makes it slop isn’t that its AI, its how mindlessly, frivolously shat into existence. One day, I’d like to serve up some AI sketch comedy skits that seed OUR values to those lemmings. And my vids won’t hide that they’re ai generated - that’s the new punk/Indy scuff that distinguishes me from corpo polish.
I see a propaganda and technology arms race where we are intentionally choosing to be behind. Small teams can do more with new tools than even world-spanning corporations could before.
If you want anti-ai defense for your deviantArt images? Good news, it exists!!! Bad news, its all LLM too. I’d like the chance to help you use it anyway.
I could link another 3 hour video essay about how even the anti-ai backlash is corpo bullshit. https://youtu.be/lRq0pESKJgg The photograph didn’t genocide the painter. And Disney corp thanks you for your free devotion.
As for concerns about intellectual “Property”? I’ll refer you to “Everything is a Remix” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nJPERZDfyWc to discuss how absurd that is. Note there is a 2023 version updated to discuss AI, but I want the focus on human creativity. There is no creativity without context. Ever. Full stop. Not ever for your favorite artist ever.
Art is a conversation between participants.
I’m speaking to my phone that runs a local model to make text. Typing is not working well for my hands - decades of retail, food service, warehouse, construction, even customer service work have taken my hands’ utility from me. In a way that is “principled” for you it is personal and visceral to me.
You are telling me I’m not allowed into that conversation, when I have something to say there. You seem to agree with my biology and Disney, Inc that I cannot be allowed in to the human spaces as a human. And if that’s in your Anarchism, I’m throwing you away with the AnCaps.
That was really really long and all the parts I read seemed like slop. I’m going to assume good faith here and that you just used tts transcription on this comment.
Which is part of the problem. The oligarchs jam it into everything and it’s PR push floods the zone with shit, so if it were genuinely efficient for something I wouldn’t know. I’m guessing that’s not all you use it for, because when you’ve got a hammer laying around and a pile of intractable problems, some of them are gonna get hit with a hammer, even if you had a very real task for which a hammer is the perfect tool.
And talking or searching with this shit damages your brain. It takes you out of humanity. The defenses against that are sophisticated and require a high degree of humanities and math education most people don’t have.
I remember tts features on phones at least as far back as 2015. This shit is not required. That’s like painting a swastika on your crutches and saying any objection is ableist. I know you can’t see that, and I never used tts so I can’t say how well it worked, but the memory holing and slopification of your writing style are real impacts. Maybe the trade-off is worth it, one of those fucked up sad decisions we make around disability, but that’s not how its presented and not why it’s in the conversation.
As a white woman whose body others have tried to use to justify all manner of racism, bigotry, and censorship: please don’t fall for that crap. Be your own person, not their tool.
I am neurodivergent. I also have an invisible physical disability. Nerve damage doesn’t exactly show to a casual glance.
“The good parts seemed like slop”.
I’m sorry that you have lost the capability to do empathy over the internet.
Which is part of the problem. The oligarchs jam it into everything and it’s PR push floods the zone with shit…
Yeah, that’s not me. I’m anti-cloud. I’m an explicitly anti-civ AI-bro that already codes and tries to do art. But I suspect you’re going to call any nuanced discussion “unintelligible slop”, so I don’t care to have that discourse with you.
I dont fit in either camp with the Disney vs OpenAI lawsuits. I’m glad you are clear in your allegiance to the Disney position. I just need you to accept your Disney-adulthood.
And talking or searching with this shit damages your brain
Can I get a source? A discussion of methods for any study? Because repeating a headline is not Literacy, and does not lead to truth.
I remember tts features on phones at least as far back as 2015. This shit is not required.
I have nerve damage in my arms. I tried to be gentle, but that doesn’t land. Fuck you for telling me what is and is not “required”.
Maybe the trade-off is worth it, one of those fucked up sad decisions we make around disability, but that’s not how its presented and not why it’s in the conversation.
I am MAKING it part of this conversation. And if you cannot accept that, I see it as a reason to block your Disney-gaslit ass and move on.
I typed this by hand. Just for you. Now I gotta go rest for an hour with icepacks. In that time, I’d like to see something much easier to distinguish from a Trumpfan’s take on Trans Rights.
I also have an invisible physical disability. Nerve damage doesn’t exactly show to a casual glance.
I don’t wanna get off-topic, but I just wanted to say I feel for you. I did hard labor for many years, and I’m always worried this may happen to me. Everytime one of my fingers goes randomly numb, I freak out. Sorry you’re going through this, but thanks for being so open and honest about it.
Thank you.
You’re taking a lot of liberties with what I said and putting a lot of words in my mouth.
To clarify on the one ambiguity I might attribute to a failure of my writing rather than a failure of your chat bot’s hallucination-heavy summary:
Not required for the assistive technology to function, not that the assistive technology was not required. I don’t think you’re capable of actual discourse and I think I’m done trying to coddle violent illiterate little fascists.
I see… So that speech to text back in 2016… You think that wasn’t and LLM. Just because it was 2016?! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH
Thanks? I needed a laugh.
I’m sorry you think its a different technology just because you didn’t understand what it is.
“Attention Is All You Need” wasn’t published until mid-2017.
Speech recognition goes back to the black-and-white Macintosh era. They had shirts reading “I helped Apple wreck a nice beach.”
Anything in 2016 mmmight have involved a deep neural network, but could not have been an LLM as anyone today would use the term, since they literally did not exist yet.
TIL. Thank you.
It is worth remembering how quickly all of this happened. DALL-E’s announcement was the day before the January 6th attack, 2021. Original-flavor Sora was like eighteen months after that. Four years later, there’s entire competing families of local video models, and every time I look there’s another image model with a stupid name.
Honestly I’m surprised how little has changed in light of that. There’s a handful of people on Youtube trying some cool shit… and then a vast gulf down to niche pornography and Fruit Love Island. The backlash might be self-fulfilling at this point.
THIS POST WAS GENERATED WITH AI
Please do elaborate
out of tokens
I don’t use genAI basically at all, but I have experience with machine learning in general. Here’s my take:
Generative AI itself is literally just statistical modeling. Very complicated statistical modeling/prediction but still the same idea as any other method for prediction/classification.
The only problem is how certain models are trained and/or used.
You can (and imo should because it’s fun/interesting) create your own generative AI using responsibly sourced training data and open source code. Is that a crime? Does that hurt anyone? Does that harm society as a whole? No.
The concept of “GenAI” is not the problem. In fact, utilizing it for protien/drug discovery is pretty fucking cool, as is the fact it makes language translation significantly more accessible and accurate.
The problems you listed mostly apply to strictly corporate GenAI models. They are problematic not because they are generative statistical models but because they are built, maintained, controlled, and used by capitalist institutions in a capitalist society which allows them to do any damage they want as long as they can continue
bribing politicianslining the pockets of investorsI mostly agree with you in threory.
However, I do think the issues I’ve brought up exist even if it is not a corporate model. That is because most people will not be making their own llm.
Just like in theory people could make their own operating system for their computer, the same way that Linus did. Most people will not go that route, they will use the kernel, maybe they might make a distro, but they aren’t willing to make it entirely from scratch.
So when it comes to using genAI, you are going to have a lot of people (including leftists) just using a corporate model, then you have a smaller subset trying out “open” models like deepseek, then a smaller subset locally hosting a distilled model, and a smaller subset fine tuning a model or using RAG, and smaller and smaller subsets of people maybe try to build something on their own.
So in reality, most of these users will be making predictable and easily influenced output using these tools.
Also, I think the basic function of these tools, which will be true for open or corporate models, makes us less dependent on eachother, which I think will lead to even more self centered societies then we currently have and not the community centric goal that I think a lot of us share.
So when it comes to using genAI, you are going to have a lot of people (including leftists) just using a corporate model, then you have a smaller subset trying out “open” models like deepseek, then a smaller subset locally hosting a distilled model, and a smaller subset fine tuning a model or using RAG, and smaller and smaller subsets of people maybe try to build something on their own.
Pretend you’re vegan for me, and that people eating meat in front of you physically grosses you out.
Are you going to be the militant fundamentalist vegan who wants ALL animal products banned? Or are you going to be more pragmatic, understand that some people have more reach for meat-independence than others?
Because the Vegans I know and respect will celebrate a barbecue bro enjoying meatless Mondays.
But even this neglects some fascinating phenomena: deepseek has captured a LARGE part of the American LLM market on price alone. The inability to build a Data Mine that respects the neighbors is stalling the US chud-companies. Deepseek and Kimi K3 now outperform Claude in some tests for less than 20% of the price.
If I didn’t know better, I’d say China is trying to pop the AI bubble that’s propping up the US stock market. They’re doing it with superior engineering on “inferior” (read: accessible, less bitcoin-mining-right-turned cancer-for-a-building) hardware. China is doing it by rescuing us from sky high memory prices by Xmas 2027, and GPUs by xmas 2028.
Collapse the price of the hardware, suddenly those absurdly large investments become shitty deals. The balance sheets on all the corpos involved? Collapse with it.
I have my critiques of China, I’m a fucking Anarchist. The fact remains that they are the ally we have and need in this specific fight.
Omg I need to rig my browser to translate Chinese better, because there’s Communities with models for ANYTHING. And they’re given away freely, as is right and just.
I just wanna nerd out and be able to build cool shit for my comrades, with my comrades.
Chinese tech workers get to build drones for actual disaster relief. Any time I’m about to get a job in that here, in the US? Its a weapons platform and the boss isn’t allowed to even say it.
The Chinese “market” for AI is stronger, healthier, more robust, and more useful for things that aren’t violence. Meanwhile, the US government has drafted every US corpo-LLM into being digital soldiers that drive weapon drones. I am okay leaving Pwlantir in the garbage can of history.
I hope my sleep deprived rambling adds to the convo.
So when it comes to using genAI, you are going to have a lot of people (including leftists) just using a corporate model, then you have a smaller subset trying out “open” models like deepseek, then a smaller subset locally hosting a distilled model, and a smaller subset fine tuning a model or using RAG, and smaller and smaller subsets of people maybe try to build something on their own.
The db0 instance’s official stance is against using corpo AI, so you’re talking to the smaller subset already. So any arguments based on “most people” aren’t really relevant to the complaint you’ve made about this instance.
So in reality, most of these users will be making predictable and easily influenced output using these tools.
If you’re talking about the AI output, predictability is kinda the point. If you’re talking about the “influence” effect it has on certain people, watching youtubers or consuming any media can also influence people significantly. Does this mean listening to or creating podcasts is unethical and shouldn’t be tolerated? No, it means you should be careful what kind of media you consume regardless of its source. I am reasonably certain everyone on this instance knows genAI is quite fallible and biased.
Also, I think the basic function of these tools, which will be true for open or corporate models, makes us less dependent on eachother, which I think will lead to even more self centered societies then we currently have and not the community centric goal that I think a lot of us share.
First, there is a difference between dependence and dependability.
- You do not want to be dependent on specific members of your community; that would imply you and others couldn’t get by without them, meaning your community is not resilient.
- You do want to be able to depend on others in your community (and vice versa); this makes your community stronger.
Secondly, one could make this argument about any information sharing system ever. Youtube tutorials have made people less dependent on repair-men. Does that mean tutorials on how to fix an air conditioner are unethical?
Furthermore, genAI is a hobby for some people (especially those on this instance who use it). People like sharing cool things they made with/about their hobbies, and finding people with shared interests is a great way to build a sense of community. However, if an instance were to assert that no use of genAI is ethical ever, that would alienate people who use it in an ethical way, preventing/discouraging them from sharing/creating and/or participating in communities that they would have otherwise. I’d argue that is literally, directly against the “community centric goal” which “a lot of us share.”
Great write-up!
All fair points, thanks.
I do think there might be something positive to be said about genAI when it comes to semantic seach.
If genAI is a tool to use, I see it more as a weapon that needs a set of operating procedures to use safely. Similar to my gun or car.
Its not being used to augment search. It’s being used to replace search.
Every defense of this shit reads like going back to 1989 and publishing an op-ed about how MRNA vaccines and crisper are gonna be so cool, so stop whining about AIDS you damn vaccine hating bigots.
Edit: not to imply anything that good is going to come out of this. The math says it won’t.
Uh, what math? There are already good things coming out of it, so I’m not sure how math can show that.
For me, I can be against mass scraping, corporate control, bullshit surveillance, or using AI as a replacement for real human interactions without being against generative AI itself.
If someone runs a local model, trains it on public domain or willingly provided data, and keeps control of it themselves, I don’t think it conflicts with anarchism all. The bigger issue seems to be who owns the technology, where the data came from, and what it’s being used for. All issues that can be solved by running your own local AI model.
I think the nature of the model privileges past and precedent, and I think the prevalence is part of a fascist push to manipulate a lot of glaring vulnerabilities in human cognition. Most critically our pack bonding and precedence bias, and to a lesser extent laziness, all of which most people have no defense. It is a weapon to kill imagination and truth.
I don’t care if your bhuddist; that’s still a swastika, and it’s painted on the side of a German tank.
GenAl is a stolen facsimile of a human
False. It’s literally just a computer program.
who can never understand morals or praxis. It can never understand freedom or control.
No computer program will ever understand this, nor should we expect that.
It will however poison our communities (look at what SpaceX/Anthropic is doing in Memphis, TN)
“AI” is not doing this. It’s being done by capitalists (spacex, anthropic). Stop letting them off the hook.
make us more predictable (and thus easier to control)
How does using a computer program do this?
and isolate us from other humans within the community which is so important to us.
How does using a computer program do this?
Even with the most moral genAl you can possibly have
Computers have no more “morality” than a calculator.
TBH this is just feeding the grift with more pseudo-scientific nonsense.
I can answer one of the questions.
How does using a computer program do this?
Maybe not in the way OP is thinking, but it does massively help control us and here is how:
Fascism always had one huge flaw that prevented it from ever fully working: data. 1920s Germany was quite efficient at this, but they still had literally thousands of people listening, spying, reporting on, and processing data into threats that the SS would deal with.
That is simply too much data for humans to sift through and not miss a fuck ton of things, leading to resistance movements gaining a lot of ground.
AI solves this problem in that a few data centers can process spying data (and much more of it from the surveillance devices almost every person has in their house right now) fairly close to real time. That is a game changer. That is why the technofascists are pushing AI so hard to speed up development. It is essentially the best large scale pattern recognizer in the world and the manpower it takes to run that system is extremely small. That is why palantir is getting its claws in everywhere. Governments want that, whether for good or evil.
AI is a game changer for authoritarians. Or course, they would have to use it well still to be effective, but for example Palantir is building AI-only kill chains where targets are identified based on large data ingest, located, and then drones can be sent to kill them. That can happen in minutes or hours instead of the weeks or months it would traditionally take and resistance leadership is a finite resource.
This applies to cameras as well. Cameras help fascists, fascists help target victims, cameras help track people, cameras help report where people are and what they are doing. Cameras make us easier to control.
Do you think all cameras are bad? or are they just a tool that is being mis-used by the fascists?
Who needs to process the camera data? Again, it is a very different technology from all of the comparisons because it is literally taking out the need for large bodies of human oversight. Data collection vs data processing.
A camera does not decide who lives and who dies. An LLM can (and has) decided who lives and who dies and can carry out the execution orders itself.
But I guess cameras aren’t starving people of water and power and a required prerequisite to their use at scale.
But you’re right. LLMs aren’t evil at all, they are just a tool. The next defining tool that fascists now need to subjugate everyone and eliminate resistance.
Who needs to process the camera data? Again, it is a very different technology from all of the comparisons because it is literally taking out the need for large bodies of human oversight. Data collection vs data processing.
I could say the same thing about spreadsheets. Is spreadsheet software, or databases bad?
A camera does not decide who lives and who dies. An LLM can (and has) decided who lives and who dies and can carry out the execution orders itself.
That’s a choice that is being made. That’s not the point of LLMs, it’s one of the many things that LLMs are being used for.
But I guess cameras aren’t starving people of water and power and a required prerequisite to their use at scale.
The same is also true of LLMs. Capitalism is doing that. We can make LLMs much more efficiently, but we choose not to, due to capitalism.
But you’re right. LLMs aren’t evil at all, they are just a tool. The next defining tool that fascists now need to subjugate everyone and eliminate resistance.
I’m against their use by facists, just like I’m against facists using cars, or bulldozers, or guns, or wheat. I just don’t see how LLMs are any different.
They’re only different because these people very strongly personally dislike them and they aren’t content with it just being their opinion. Which is why they make up some of the most pathetic bad faith arguments you’ll ever hear.
You know what else is a fascist tool by their logic? Internet, Television, Computers, Cars, Trains… Pretty much all technology in the hands of fascists will benefit fascists.
That’s why we need to fight fascists instead of doing this stupid culture war bullshit. I wonder if some of these anti-AI people are intentionally trying to distract from that. After all like most liberals they intentionally or unintentionally support fascist agendas.
I think people are upset by the legitimate problems that they see, but I think they typically mis-diagnose the cause of the problems.
People are scared to lose their jobs, and their livelihood, for good reason. Capitalism sucks, and it ties the two together.
I’m pro automation, because I want people to lose their jobs. What I don’t want is for them to lose their livelihood. I think people working on jobs that they don’t like just to pay the bills is dumb, but people working on jobs that they enjoy is awesome.
Probably is that for most people, amplified due to the culture war. I don’t think that excuse works for the people claiming to be anarchist and anti-copyright though. A lot of people in this thread seem to be doing it maliciously not out of ignorance.
Some people think anarchism is doing whatever you want with no regard for others.
Some people think anarchism is doing whatever you want with no regard for
otherscapitalists.Fixed it for you. Yes a lot of anarchists are more than happy to step on capitalists claiming to own ideas or concepts. Copyright and intellectual property are capitalist constructs and despite being Fuck_AI’s favorite talking point are not something we consider valid or worthy of following. Though we host [email protected] so that shouldn’t be a surprise to you.
“Everyone I disagree with is a capitalist” and other arguments by the mentally numbed.
disengage
“People don’t like my use of fascist tech, better use the leftist safeword.”
Which is funny because anarchism is fundamentally built on empathy
Empathy is to compassion as square is to rectangle. Please don’t forget the other rectangles.
Fair!
I find a lot of them have very thin skin.
Especially when you downvote a single post on their slop communities so they ban you from every community they mod.
Not talking about anyone specific tho.
Or when you’ve never seen their slop communities and get banned from the one real community they moderate with their delusions cited in a mass ban from everything they moderate. Obnoxious.
Lol
Including after never interacting with them. Fucking sloppers man istf, they’re so conditioned by the mechanical sycophant that just letting your gaze wander by them without getting on your knees and tearing their pants off is a grave insult. They seriously aren’t even people.
dbzer0’s general tolerance for genAI is the main reason I will never create an account on that instance. This is ridiculous. These people rant about the environment, ethics, genocide, and Big Tech, and then happily devour AI slop.
EDIT: For those of you who are ready to comment about “wonderful” local LLMs, see this.
You lost me at stolen training data. You seem like yet another liberal for copyright. That is the primary thesis of your argument. Which is pathetic. I hope you are aware that most of us consider unlicensed usage of training material a feature not a bug. This is home of [email protected] don’t act so surprised we aren’t morally outraged like you are that someone pirated images or books to use in training data. Many of us would freely do it ourselves. Some of us do do it ourselves.
It’s probably a good thing you didn’t make an account here. Liberalism isn’t tolerated well.
How can one of the points from the link I provided to the general list of LLM issues be my main argument? Do you think I’m the one who compiled that list?
And to label me a liberal based on that sole baseless conclusion is absolutely ridiculous. I hate copyright and support piracy just as much as next person.
And to label me a liberal based on that sole baseless conclusion is absolutely ridiculous. I hate copyright and support piracy just as much as next person.
Somehow I’m not convinced because the only ones really relevant to local AIs are the copyright ones, and the other shit is about the AIs hosted and trained by the big tech companies like Anthropic and OpenAI. Like the majority of the shit in here is shit the AI companies are doing and you cite it as a reason why people on dbzer0 using their own home grown or even home built models are bad people?
Don’t tell me you aren’t trying to do that. You called out Local LLM users in your edit:
EDIT: For those of you who are ready to comment about “wonderful” local LLMs
only ones really relevant to local AIs are the copyright ones
No, it is about lack of consent. The open models are all trained through non-consential heavy web scraping, killing off smaller web servers by the thousands and driving server admins to despair by their use of (ususally non-consential) residential proxy bot networks.
The total lack of respect of any consential boundaries is the real problem. It is a pure strawman to claim that this is about copyright.
Putting shit on the web is giving consent to scrape it
There are plenty of them that are not trained through non-consential scraping. Just because some of the people making AI models are assholes don’t mean everyone making AI models is an asshole.
Name one that is actually useful 🤷
You want me to do a basic internet search for you?
You haven’t heard people bitch and moan about art theft as much as I have. I agree with what you’re saying about large companies scraping data but you are being too charitable to these people. People do indeed bitch and moan about art theft and I have no tolerance for that level of liberal apologia.
So it is fine to ignore the consent of artists? Sure, they usually talk about copyright, but what most mean is consent and not the legal construct.
Also, “bitch and moan” is pretty mysogynist language, especially in this context.
You’re right. I’m sorry about that. I should have known to avoid language like that. I changed it to something better.
As for the other thing though. I’m not on board with that either. That’s just a socially enforced version of Intellectual property. It all converges on the idea that people are allowed to own intangible stuff like ideas, or bits. It’s the same liberal idea and expectation as copyright law just with different enforcement. Not so different though, they both expect blind compliance and assume moral superiority.
Ai isn’t killing the planet, people are
bzer0’s general tolerance for genAI
We dont have a “general” tolerance. We have a tolerance for local non-corporate models.
