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Don’t argue with delusional people unless you’re also willing to reject reality (don’t do that).
Doing good work 🏴
When a tankie says they’re not imperialist, they’re generally referring to the strict definition set forth by Lenin, and not the looser definition in common use.
You’ll get some online tankies who dick ride Russia for sure, but they’re just larping. Real Marxists, who do real organizing, are generally more discerning.
Oh god, what is the looser definition then? Because it really looks like libs are using it to mean any war.
I personally think Russia’s long-standing attitude and justifications for undermining and attacking Ukraine are imperialist. It seems Russians view Ukraine as traditionally Russian, even the Ukraine has developed their own national identity. Same thing with how China views Taiwan and Tibet, they use past history to hand-wave away any claims of self-determinism and develop a narrative that manipulation and threats are justified.
(I’m not a geopolitical expert and willing to hear good-faith arguments, but anyone who’s just snarky or insulting will just get ignored. I’m here to learn, not to fight.)
But why? What is your understanding of imperialism that qualifies Russia’s invasion of Ukraine?
I guess it’s the textbook definition? A larger nation using its resources (cultural soft power, or military power) to extend their authority over a smaller country. Usually for economic or territorial ends. I apply it to Russia/Ukraine because I put more stock in Ukraine’s sovereignty-from-cultural-identity than I do in Russia’s historical claims over it. It seems adjacent to decolonization to me.
Don’t forget all the russification brought to eastern Europe by the bullshit imperalist Soviet union.
Should they have made everybody speak French or English? To compete with the West economically the East needed a common language. How should the language have been chosen?
What they should have done is let countries keep their sovereignty. Or are you saying that ecomonic competition with the west is a valid reason for what Russia did to eastern Europe?
This is what I mean, by that definition you can cover almost every war. You don’t see smaller nations invading larger, more powerful ones. You can even use it to say the US influence in Ukraine over the last 30 has been imperialist. The Norman invasion of 1066 becomes imperialist. Can you really not see how meaningless a definition that is?
This is what I mean, by that definition you can cover almost every war.
Only if your reading comprehension sucks…
Well, I mean, as an American I can mention a couple of important wars to my homeland that weren’t driven by these motivations. Shall I elucidate?
Agreed as very well known and easy examples that prove not all wars got the definition.
Plus what in the world is wrong with it fitting 80-90% of wars for at least one side of the conflict? It is easily one of the most likely reasons for counties to go to war.
You mean the revolution? Because I’m pretty sure you aren’t about the raise the civil war, where the more powerful north imposed it’s will on the confederacy through military power.
Please stop engaging with this troll, they’re not operating in good faith, they just want to engage in russian atrocity apologia
You’re a sealioning fascist
Yeah, yeah, can you give me a definition without opening Wikipedia or not?
What definition are you using, just out of curiosity?
Exploitation of a nation for labour and resources. You know, like America invading Iraq and Afghanistan for oil and heroin, or America invading Korea so they could get cheap sweatshop labour, or Europe invading Africa for everything and everyone that wasn’t nailed down.
So you agree that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is imperialist?
Exploitation of a nation for labour and resources.
Because it’s exactly that.
You say it like I’m some capitalist pig that doesn’t agree with all of the above. I don’t get why Russia gets a pass though, they mucked about in Africa, Asia and Latin America in their past too. They are still in Africa from what I understand and it’s hard to pretend they aren’t in Ukraine specifically for ressources.
Russia doesn’t get a pass for it’s actual imperialism, but Russia’s other actions doesn’t make this action imperialist.
It’s hard to pretend they are in Ukraine for resources, Ukraine was having a full blown civil war over the banning of speaking russian. I know we’re used to standing idly by and shrugging our shoulders when someone’s attempting genocide, but saying Russia is there for resources is just pretending history started in 2022.Are you honestly saying Ukraines defence against a violent seccession, possible only do to Russian instigation, is attempted genocide?
And of course Ukraines eastern natural gas reserves are one of the reasons for the invasion, thinking otherwise is just naive.
Ukraines defence against a violent seccession, possible only do to Russian instigation
You are actually joking, right? How do you defend against succession? They’re trying to leave and you’re stopping them.
Ukraines eastern natural gas reserves are one of the reasons for the invasion
The whole of Ukraine produces a fraction of the natural gas Russia does. They’ve not reorganised their entire economy for a 5% increase in production.
You’re moving further and further from reality as you try to vibe your way through politics. Read any sort of theory for once.
Yeah I’d call those all imperialism as well. There’s a distinct theme of economic expansion - and that certainly doesn’t describe every war I know about
I can’t help but feel you are actually engaging in bad faith when you’ve commented twice that you definitely know other wars but don’t mention what they are.
If you think I’m trolling or whatever, you’re free to bow out of the conversation. I was just trying to be succinct and avoid writing walls of text.
I’m not familiar with Lenin’s particular definition of imperialism. Does it somehow exclude what Russia is doing?
If you want to understand fully how they decide imperialist vs not imperialist you’d have to read, imperialism: the highest stage of capitalism.
Really it comes down to finance and the export of capital. Lenin differentiated between finance and exporting capital, and wars of territorial aggression. What Russia is doing would fall under war of aggression and not strictly imperialism according to his definition.
https://www.struggle-la-lucha.org/2023/08/16/five-key-features-of-imperialism/
Honestly, that sounds like bullshit that Lenin made up so he could say he’s totally not the new tzar.
90% of what lenin says is bullshit to justify shit.
To be fair literally everyone with any real power though history does that. If your getting your definitions entirely from a dude self justify their own actions your a fucking idiot.
Or when they say that Russia’s genocide of the Ukrainians or China’s genocide of the Uyghurs isn’t real and claiming it is real is actually genocide denialism?
/This is an actual image of .ml’s and dbzer0’s admins.Pretty accurate. However it is just braindead like @[email protected] and @[email protected]
But as long as @[email protected] let’s them do whatever they want, he is part of the problem.
And they call themselves anarchists lol. Like someone who smoked weed once calls themselves hippie.
Edit: watch me get banned in real time from their hypocritical “Anarchist Flotilla”. I bet they all feel like heroes by using the term Flotilla
ShitLibs give no fucks whatsoever for what a word actually means once their billionaire masters have given them a definition that prevents them from thinking thoughts that are dangerous to the status quo.
Imperialism is a form of capitalism that exists when finance capital has eclipsed commodity production as the Primary driver of the economy in a nation. Russia would love to be Imperialist, but they aren’t, bcs they aren’t economically developed enough. You’re thinking of expansionism, not Imperialism.
Russia would love to be Imperialist, but they aren’t, bcs they aren’t economically developed enough.
The word Imperialism was coined in the 1870’s and applied to countries that were several orders of magnitude less developed than Russia today. Lenin defined Imperialism as the highest stage of capitalism which definitely applies to Russia today. Russia is as capitalist and developed as the UK is today.
Oh look we have a defender of neo fascist Russia.
Ohh they are not developed enough to be a neo fascist shithole, you don’t say.
You have to remember- Russian fascism was fought since its inception by the West! It was never given a chance to grow into its full potential!
😡
Edit: ok except that one time when we collaborated with them to fight an even greater fascist threat that they were previously allied with but tomato potatoe
Expansionism is a subset of imperialism. Imperialism (the word and the actual behavior) existed before Lenin described imperialism under capitalism.
Words are words are words. A rose is a rose is a rose and by any other name smells as sweet.
Blablabla.
Let’s not invade and kill people. Ok? Ok.
Just writing a bunch of tankie buzzwords makes you feel smart but nothing you said is true lol. When stupid people think they are smart because they’ve learned to speak in a certain cadence and use certain words popular with their in-crowd it’s really dangerous and cringey to boot. Very similar to religion. Hearing people pray out loud just makes my skin crawl. Your comment is really similar.
Lol, so you actually think that using the replacement definitions your capitalist masters created to ensure you wouldn’t be able to think thoughts that are dangerous to them is not “dangerous and cringey”?
I’m guessing you also think your residence and car are “private property” too, don’t you?
Your boss and landlord thank your for you pliability.
By this definition though, literally all wars of conquest (i.e. most of them) are “imperialism”.
I am a tankie so while I lean on Lenin’s definition of imperialism, let’s put that aside for a moment. “Imperialism” cannot be simple conquest. Because when we think of “imperialism” without tying it to a specific example, I think we all broadly get the same picture. Something like an octopus, extending its reach out far and wide an establishing control over places, in service of enriching the metropole. Conquest can be one initial stage of imperial control, or imperialism doesn’t even need military conquest. It’s why I would say the United States in 2026 is unequivocally imperialist. So were the pre-WW1 Western European nations.
I’m not making any sort of judgement on the rightness or wrongness of Russia’s actions. It’s just that I get a bee in bonnet when liberals try and downplay the true imperialism of present day US and Europe by saying “bbbbut Russia is imperialist too!!!” when they don’t even have any understanding of the word.
Tl dr. You are excusing one assfuck because another assfuck does something bad.
Making you the biggest assfuck in the room.
More than one entity can be wrong at a time, and that means everyone is an assfuck.
So say it with me now. Russia is being an assfuck.
I literally explained how I was taking issue with the use of the word “imperialism” and not commenting the morality of the action. But maybe reading comprehension is hard for you? It so I’m sorry for your affliction.
Invading Ukraine is bad.
I get the distinct impression that you’re actually hard core capitalist.
What’s your point? It sounds like your complaining about some people downplaying western imperialism to highlight Russia while you downplay Russian imperialism to highlight the West.
Something about octopuses? Or octopii? Octopodes? I am uncertain about the preferred nomenclature but a mollusk of some brand is involved.
Si the reason you don’t think Russia is imperialist is whataboutism. While simultaneously complaining about “liberal” whataboutism. Truly .ml logic.
I am yet to hear from liberals defend imperialism from their own side. I mean, liberals are one of many who typically are vocal against imperialism. Liberals are labeled as “self-hating” by conservatives for a reason. Meanwhile, tankies are either paid or being useful idiots who side with anyone–including opposing imperialists-- just for being anti-Western just for the sake of it.
/Sun Tzu
And I gotta say, I am extremely impressed with Putins strategy. He didn’t even hide it, and it still worked over decades. A three or four decade long chess move. He is for sure one of history’s great villains, but you can’t help but respect the play. He brought the US to its knees without having to fire a single bullet.
Well ok a few very select bullets, but no hot confrontation. Just honey, rubles and polonium.
He studied his Tzu well! Or Napoleon, for that matter, or Caesar, or perhaps Machiavelli. Or Peter the Pretty Great but Perhaps Not So Great In Hindsight Great.
Divide et impera.
Alas, I wax latin…
I wouldn’t give Putin too much credit. A lot of analysts have astutely observed that Putin can only start conflicts but can’t finish them. Even Georgia is an unresolved business. But of course, that problem culminated with Ukraine. Decades of consolidating power for himself and rebuilding Russia’s prestige is undone in just five years. Putin’s Russia excel at information war but not actual physical war.
Russia has been weakened just as the US. The real winner is China.
No argument there. Our weakness is as much to blame as his… Whatever that is. Tsarism?
I think you’re running into a conflict of definitions. Usually that’s what these sorts of disagreements boil down to. In order to answer whether Russia counts as “imperialist”, you first have to know what counts as “imperialism”.
the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and dominion of a nation especially by direct territorial acquisitions or by gaining indirect control over the political or economic life of other areas
By this definition, it’s difficult to say Russia is doing capital “I” imperialism, since they’re not occupying and controlling a majority of Ukraine. If you count any amount of land occupied, then they are.
When you’re talking to tankies, you also have to realise that Imperialism is a jargon term with a specific definition. That’s explained by Lenin here, if you’re interested.
I think you’re confusing the “extending the power and dominion of a nation” bit and are treating that line as if it refers to two entities, as it it read “extending the power and dominating a nation”.
“The dominion of a nation” is basically its possessions.
The passage is really saying that Imperialism is “the policy, practice, or advocacy of extending the power and territory or resources of a nation especially …”, though personally I’d replace “nation” with “entity”, since I do think the capitalistic use is also appropriate. It’s really about an entity wanting to expand (or consolidate) its control.
Anyways, with that clarification, I don’t think whether or not Russia is doing an imperialism is under question.
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Of course it’s imperialism.
What kinda irks me, as an American, is when other Americans act like this is the first time anyone’s done an invasion in the 21st century. As though our government didn’t spend the last twenty+ years establishing what huge economic, nuclear powers can get away with on the world stage.
I will down vote because you have said something that my Lemmy-Cult finds offensive and also say something about how you are capitalist pig monster.
Wait, are those two different cults? I’m still trying to sort out all the flavors of insanity around here.
Good thing we’ve got folks like you who are better and smarter than everyone
No, not everyone. Just a lot of you. I do appreciate the compliment, though. Keep trying and you’ll get there one day, maybe. :)
It blows my mind that pro- Palestinians think they shouldn’t support Ukraine.
I wonder if MLs around here are pro-Palestine only because that’s a pushback against the Western representation in the Middle East, Isreal
Yeah they have no issue with China helping Israel as long as sometimes the country says free palestine
I think you nailed it.
I think some of that stems from Zelensky holding Israel in favor a lot. He’s had multiple positive comments about it, even though Israel is doing what Russia did to Ukraine (or tried to do really)
His view on Israel has shifted considerably. I don’t blame him for trying to highlight the parallels to gain favor and cooperation immediately after October 7. Naturally he’s signaling, “Ah, you’re going through what we’ve been going through! Let’s work together!”
Though of course after months went on and Israel’s response became orders of magnitude more atrocious and russian-like than the attack itself, then Ukraine began distancing itself and even providing aid to Gaza.
On the other hand, Ukraine really can’t afford to antagonize the US or western Europe. And since those countries are ride or die for Israel, well, Ukraine needs to be, too.
You see in the current geopolitical material situation it’s essential for Russia and China to be the counteraction to the US by doing the same and aligning on their shared goal of billionaire murder cult child fuckers exploiting all of humanity
Has it… Has it always been like this? Maybe it was there dormant, like cancer, that suddenly sprang metastases when conditions got ripe? Let it stew too long… You want to catch that early, nip in in the bud. You can’t easily get rid of it once it burrowed its tick head in there.
Sorry for meandering, just thinking out loud…
Does anyone know if molotov cocktails work as tick removers? How well and what dose, does anyone know? (no AI answers ples)
The Web has its share of agents working for a nation state to guide the discourse. I imagine this location is too different.
I have a 35 year-old coworker who is a Ride Or Die Russian dick rider he doesn’t fully support Trump since the Epstein cover-up, but he still will praise him, but he fully supports Russia in its invasion of Ukraine saying that Ukraine is full of pedophiles and they need to be wiped off the Earth. And somehow achieving this will make our lives in America better and everything will be cheaper somehow…
Don’t give money to Ukraine because they’re evil fascists. Let Putin and his glorious thousand year regime reign supreme and stamp out the parasites suckling the life out of the earth like ticks on the flesh of Matka Rossiya.
This will also make eggs cheaper.
It’s why Tucker Carlson supports them: they’re right-wing authoritarian nationalists.
My theory with Tucker and MTG is that they are sitting on the sidelines waiting for Donnie to die, and that will cause a power vacuum in maga and they will do everything in their power to take control and move the party in their own way forward, which I don’t think will work, but it will cause a spinoff, which will be worse than it was before.
You’re right, but I don’t think it’s really theory that the far-right also has factions.
Why do you believe that Lenin’s narrow and skewed definition of imperialism is the only true and authentic one?
The word was in common use for at least 100 years before Lenin even started writing, mostly used to denigrate French and British expansion and colonialism.
I believe Marx would also disagree with Lenin on this definition, but I understand that .ml are much bigger fans of Lenin and Stalin than Marx.
Forgive me if this sounds like I’m being dismissive - I’m not trying to be, just trying to be practical. Anyway, doesn’t this seems like splitting hairs? Any violence initiated with the intent of economic expansion seems unethical and unjust to me. At least, far less just than revolutionary or anti-colonial violence. Labels are just labels, and whether or not something adheres to Lenin’s definition seems to be far less important than the fact that people are dying and suffering because of the greed of the wealthy.
It looks like carefully slicing of the original definition to make a new one were, as long as the political ideology doing the deed is Marxist-Leninist or similar, then taking other people’s shit and land and forcefully making them subject to your control is not “imperialist”.
In other words, the same level of bullshit hypocrisy as when America attacks a Middle Eastern nation claiming to be “freeing” them or Israel mass murders Gazans whilst harping all about how it’s Palestinians who are morally bad because of how they treat homosexuals (who, notice, are being murdered by Israel just as much as the rest of Gazans).
Conquerors and murders twisting and redefining words to claim they’re the good guys.
The original definition came out of 1830s France. Definitions change when understanding evolves. Surely you wouldn’t ding Encyclopedia Brittanica for bastardizing (or “careful slicing”) the definition of imperialism as set forth by the original anti bonapartists?
This sarcastic comment was removed and got me banned:
I see. So the US western expansion wasn’t imperialist because they weren’t a hegemonic world power yet. They were just trying to make sure they could stand up to England! It wasn’t about territorial expansion or resources at all. Ridiculous drivel.
They can’t let other tankies see how ridiculous their arguments are.
The other one was mocking tankies for gargling Putin’s asshole, which is a bit more understandable; I guess some people like the taste.
Don’t forget insulting your blood line while they are at it.
🤣 I enjoy refuting their bullshit about the USSR since I’m from there.
Oh that’s their only way of survival. Not by logic, but by banning anything going against their opinion.
It’s the same as if you would argue with a flatearther. Pure denialism.
Tankies are authoritarians. Red fascists. They don’t give a fuck about anything or anyone, just their fascist kings being in charge so they can hurt people they think are inferior. Just like any other fascist.
They shit on Marx and gargle Lenin and Mao, then tell you that actually state control and secret police are the real communism.
Is it any wonder from people who cheer when the tanks roll over protesters and revolutionaries?
I hate how much they made Marx’s name dirty, not only people will look at you funny for being communism because of the $$$ propaganda, they will also look at tankies and think communists are like this, infuriating
I am still convinced a sizable chunk of online tankies are just right-wing extremists cosplaying. Oh, and of course foreign operatives.
I’d say it’s even simpler than that, it’s just tribalism.
$person has criticized our gracious $monarch. They deserve to die!
$person speaks against $religion and is a heretic. They deserve to die!
$person made fun of $fascist_leader. They deserve to die!
$person goes against $party. They deserve to die!
Whoever is in power speaks absolute truth. Be it a fascist leader, a church, a communist party or a monarch. Opposing that truth is heresy/treason/counter-revolutionary/evil and should be severely punished.
