• da_cow (she/her)@feddit.org
    0·
    1 month ago

    I never understood what problem people have with systemd. I have fried my installation more than once, but not even once did I encounter a problem with systemd.

    So to all of you systemd haters, explain your hate to me, I’m curious.

    • cm0002@mander.xyzOP
      0·
      1 month ago

      Not a hater of systemd per se, sometimes it’s annoying but to me it’s eh whatever

      But the root issue, is it violates the ancient GNU/Linux philosophy of making one tool do one thing and having it do that one thing very well. If you need to do complicated things, then you make multiple tools in a way that you can chain them to accomplish those tasks

      It’s why the core tools of linux: awk, grep, cat, sort etc are the way that they are

      SystemD violates this by being, well, everything. It’s now handling networking and daemons and boot and a myriad of other things hence the meme

      Whether you see this as a good, bad or neutral thing depends on how closely you follow the tool philosophy

    • wabasso@lemmy.caEnglish
      0·
      1 month ago

      I’m a beginner to intermediate level home desktop user of Linux. I think I represent a small or at least low priority class of people with complaints, but for me it’s that it’s been confusing to learn how the distro is glued together.

      I find sometimes things are handled in pre-systemd ways, sometimes with systemd, and sometimes custom scripts. Basically it is mentally hard having something on the system that duplicates functionality and not knowing which I should use to not clash with the vision of the distro maintainers.

      Actually this is really a complaint about distro documentation not systemd. If you know of any documentation about the design decisions behind any major distro, I’m interested. Not forums where people piece together how to fix things, or wikis that document findings on how things behave in a distro. Something from the maintainers like, “Here’s are the scripts we added that are above/beyond the base distro (if Debian based) or above/beyond POSIX”. The only place I’ve seen this is Linux From Scratch.

  • Hond@piefed.socialEnglish
    0·
    1 month ago

    Yeah, but how do you feel about this sentence an old colleague used to say: “I like Ubuntu. Its a really good program!”

    • corsicanguppy@lemmy.caEnglish
      0·
      1 month ago

      To kids, anyone with 15 years in is “old”.

      Guess what they called us when we pointed out the procedural failures in its design? Yep: old.

      Meanwhile I’m just here booting my sysV box reliably and not cringing about HUPping dbus. I’ve never seen as frail a shit bag as a Systemd-afflicted install.

      • Andrew Beveridge@sh.itjust.works
        0·
        1 month ago

        I mean most young nerds have no idea how to use a computer never mind anything about the internals of Linux - I feel like the generations of nerds who know what systemd is are all over 30, and the ones who are mad about how systemd took over a bunch of things and kinda acted like dicks towards existing patterns are mostly over 40

        • klankin@piefed.caEnglish
          0·
          1 month ago

          Well yeah how am I supposed to fit systemd on a milkv duo of ram? My gen z brain can only handle compiling a kernel to minimize its footprint, hardly even scraping the surface of linux experience.

          (Non sarcastically though, why would anyone under 30 not know about systemd? Sure mainstream OS’ have more users than ever, but thats cause the world is techier than ever - growing up with fiber makes getting distro and tutorials trivial. I theorise youre getting pulled into the boomer mindset of “this person online does this so is an accurate representation of an entire generation”, which is kinda foolish.)

          (PPS I know some gen z’s who dont even know what a file or folder is, so I’m not saying everyone is techy, but just that is almost statistically gaurenreed some people will be with a gen z population of almost billion people).

          (PPPS, yeah Im talking about the 64mb milkv duo. No its not fun. But fuck is it informative.)

    • Bricked@feddit.org
      0·
      1 month ago

      … What you’re refering to as GNU/Linux, is in fact, systemd/GNU/Linux, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, systemd plus GNU plus Linux. GNU/Linux is not an operating system unto itself, but rather another free component of a fully functioning systemd init system made useful by the systemd daemons, shell utilities and redundant system components comprising a full init system as defined by systemd itself.

      Many computer users run a modified version of the systemd init system every day, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the version of systemd which is widely used today is often called GNU/Linux, and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the systemd init system, developed by the Red Hat.

      There really is a GNU/Linux, and these people are using it, but it is just a part of the init system they use. GNU/Linux is the os: a collection of programs that can be run by the init system. The operating system is an essential part of an init system, but useless by itself; it can only function in the context of a complete init system. GNU/Linux is normally used in combination with the systemd init system: the whole system is basically systwmd with GNU/Linux added, or systemd/GNU/Linux. All the so-called GNU/Linux distributions are really distributions of systemd/GNU/Linux!

      • Gork@sopuli.xyz
        0·
        1 month ago

        No, Richard, it’s ‘Linux’, not ‘systemd/GNU/Linux’. The most important contributions that the FSF made to Linux were the creation of the GPL and the GCC compiler. Those are fine and inspired products. GCC is a monumental achievement and has earned you, RMS, and the Free Software Foundation countless kudos and much appreciation.

        Following are some reasons for you to mull over, including some already answered in your FAQ.

        One guy, Linus Torvalds, used GCC to make his operating system (yes, Linux is an OS – more on this later). He named it ‘Linux’ with a little help from his friends. Why doesn’t he call it systemd/GNU/Linux? Because he wrote it, with more help from his friends, not you. You named your stuff, I named my stuff – including the software I wrote using GCC – and Linus named his stuff. The proper name is Linux because Linus Torvalds says so. Linus has spoken. Accept his authority. To do otherwise is to become a nag. You don’t want to be known as a nag, do you?

        (An operating system) != (a distribution). Linux is an operating system. By my definition, an operating system is that software which provides and limits access to hardware resources on a computer. That definition applies whereever you see Linux in use. However, Linux is usually distributed with a collection of utilities and applications to make it easily configurable as a desktop system, a server, a development box, or a graphics workstation, or whatever the user needs. In such a configuration, we have a Linux (based) distribution. Therein lies your strongest argument for the unwieldy title ‘systemd/GNU/Linux’ (when said bundled software is largely from the FSF). Go bug the distribution makers on that one. Take your beef to Red Hat, Mandrake, and Slackware. At least there you have an argument. Linux alone is an operating system that can be used in various applications without any GNU software whatsoever. Embedded applications come to mind as an obvious example.

        Next, even if we limit the systemd/GNU/Linux title to the GNU-based Linux distributions, we run into another obvious problem. XFree86 may well be more important to a particular Linux installation than the sum of all the GNU contributions. More properly, shouldn’t the distribution be called XFree86/Linux? Or, at a minimum, systemd/XFree86/GNU/Linux? Of course, it would be rather arbitrary to draw the line there when many other fine contributions go unlisted. Yes, I know you’ve heard this one before. Get used to it. You’ll keep hearing it until you can cleanly counter it.

        You seem to like the lines-of-code metric. There are many lines of GNU code in a typical Linux distribution. You seem to suggest that (more LOC) == (more important). However, I submit to you that raw LOC numbers do not directly correlate with importance. I would suggest that clock cycles spent on code is a better metric. For example, if my systemd spends 90% of its time executing XFree86 code, XFree86 is probably the single most important collection of code on my system. Even if I loaded ten times as many lines of useless bloatware on my system and I never excuted that bloatware, it certainly isn’t more important code than XFree86. Obviously, this metric isn’t perfect either, but LOC really, really sucks. Please refrain from using it ever again in supporting any argument.

        Last, I’d like to point out that we Linux and GNU users shouldn’t be fighting among ourselves over naming other people’s software. But what the heck, I’m in a bad mood now. I think I’m feeling sufficiently obnoxious to make the point that GCC is so very famous and, yes, so very useful only because Linux was developed. In a show of proper respect and gratitude, shouldn’t you and everyone refer to GCC as ‘the Linux compiler’? Or at least, ‘systemd Linux GCC’? Seriously, where would your masterpiece be without Linux? Languishing with the HURD?

        If there is a moral buried in this rant, maybe it is this:

        Be grateful for your abilities and your incredible success and your considerable fame. Continue to use that success and fame for good, not evil. Also, be especially grateful for Linux’ huge contribution to that success. You, RMS, the Free Software Foundation, and GNU software have reached their current high profiles largely on the back of Linux. You have changed the world. Now, go forth and don’t be a nag.

        Thanks for listening.

  • Amro@piefed.socialEnglish
    0·
    1 month ago

    Is this some porn reference? Are there poor linuxers shuffling through some hallway, clutching themselves 'cause they got systemd-ed?

  • lazynooblet@lazysoci.alEnglish
    0·
    1 month ago

    I remember when systemd was a replacement for sysvinit and it was a slight delay to relearn but overall an improvement.

    Then they started adding services, and that’s where I started to not get along with it.

    ntpd, resolver, networking, replacing ssh startup with a triggered socket. These got on my nerves and felt like it was overstepping.

    • edinbruh@feddit.itEnglish
      0·
      1 month ago

      Well, most of those aren’t really part of the “systemd init system”, they are just part of the “systemd project” which is more than just the init system.

      As such they are just optional services that you can install (except the ssh part which is still the same ssh but with a different default configuration), but the init system of systemd is still the same. They are just more convenient and/or advanced for distro maintainers.

      As a matter of fact, most desktop distributions don’t even use “systemd-networkd” which is the networking manager of systemd. Instead they use “networkmanager”, which many people associate with systemd, but it’s really an entirely different project.

      You are still free to use the systemd init system in place of sysvinit, and not use all those services you dislike, you just have to configure them. Which most people think is inconvenient, but shouldn’t be a problem for you seeing as you don’t like the convenience of the systemd ecosystem.

  • NaibofTabr@infosec.pubEnglish
    0·
    1 month ago

    The Tragedy of systemd - presentation by Benno Rice

    What I hope that this talk has provided is a removal of fear and particularly a removal of pity of SystemD and the people who actually use it. […] So, yeah, what I would challenge everyone here is look at SystemD and try and find at least one thing that you like, and then go see if you can implement it. Thank you.

  • Gork@sopuli.xyz
    0·
    1 month ago

    If it’s a D system, why didn’t they design it to pass with an A, so systema? Are they stupid?