cross-posted from: https://hexbear.net/post/7671573
Sweden knew Canada’s Marc Kennedy was a notorious cheater.
So they set up a camera at the ‘hog line’ to record it.
And caught him doing it at the Olympics.
🥌👈
Wait… As a non-sportsperson, what’s the drama here?
There is a line after which they are no longer allowed to touch the stone. The handles on the stone have sensors on it, to detect a touch after the line and call foul. But the Canadians touched the stone itself, not the handles. Which isn’t a legal move, but isn’t automatically detected. And with how they did it, the refs didn’t see it right away.
In that shot, he is still before the hog line, but regardless still not allowed to touch that part of the stone. Touching it there should have zero effect on the actual throw, but it’s still illegal
It looks like hes either trying to nudge it over a touch or a put a bit of spin on it. He wouldn’t risk cheating at the Olympics with a method that has zero effect.
The rules are silent on touching the stone. They are clear about not touching the handle. I don’t disagree with you, but the granite is not the handle.
“Sports”… haha, good one.
“On second thought it is a silly sport, let’s not go there.”
Did we learn nothing from Men With Brooms?!
I am disgusted. Appalled. Normally that would also turn me on but in this case I find the actions too morally reprehensible.
a class piece of cinema.
And then there is this angle that shows he holds his finger beside the rock after release.
The “gotcha” photo has his finger buried internally in the rock, seeing this other angle shows his finger beside the rock, but from a different angle would appear to be touching it.
Not as clear cut as they want you to believe.
The pictures are from different throws. Here the person is wearing long sleeves, and the person in the “gotcha” picture is wearing short sleeves.
as much as people disliked what they said, they’re right - the point still stands.
THIS is the angle needed on the disputed throw, because his finger is behind the stone from camera’s POV. what’s happening in this throw could very well be exactly the case in the other
Thank you, I understand they are different pictures and it seems like a few people actually see the point I was making and didn’t just downvote me because you didn’t like my opinion on it.
If we had the alternate view of the original photo it might just show his finger beside. If we only use that angle they set up then everytime his finger is beside the stone it would appear to be touching it, which is why we either need proper camera angles, 3 of them, or we just let it continue as it has been for years and years.
The point still stands. The ‘gotcha’ picture doesn’t show he’s touching the rock, his finger could be behind. And it’s all fuzzy anyway. And more importantly, he got the official win regardless. Olympic athletes are always pushing the boundaries of the rules to get the edge - it’s part of the tradition.
There’s a middle ground between “completely innocent” and “massive cheats”. I think it’s possible that the Canadians have all trained in a technique where they release the rock and then point, and the Swedes use a different release technique. When the Canadians do it, it could lead to them sometimes accidentally brushing the rock with their fingers. If it happens it might mean that they broke the rules and that that rock should be removed (or whatever it is they do), but it doesn’t mean that they’re intentionally cheating.
It really looks like they’re poking the rock with their fingers, why else would they point like that? But, I’ve seen enough people talking about the biomechanics of sports that I know that sometimes something that seems dumb like pointing might just be how they ensure that their bodies are aligned exactly the same way every time. It’s like how the Olympic pistol shooters have this weird posture with their hands in their pockets.
Different shirt, different handle color
where’d this image come from? this is exactly what I’ve been looking for, a shot from the appropriate angle
For anyone struggling with why this is a big deal* it’s like if you were playing billiards and nudged the ball after you made the shot because you didn’t like the angle of the shot, it kind of ruins the whole point
* lol, I mean, for curling at least
…if said billiard ball weighed 40 lbs.
A little finger poke ain’t gonna do shit.
But, the rules are the rules.
the primary method of playing the game involves melting a microscopic layer of ice to alter the trajectory of the 40lbs rock….
A tiny finger poke makes a ton of difference apparently, which is precisely why it’s forbidden. You’ve got a 45 meter long track, small adjustments matter a lot. Though honestly I cannot believe I am letting myself getting worked up over fucking curling.
I guess it’s just the reaction to people cheating at the highest competitive levels and then have the gall to be fucking abrasive assholes about it.
Having curled myself, I can assure you it does not…and if it did make a difference, it would almost certainly be negative, since you’re giving up any semblance of control that you had on the actual throw. There’s not going to be some “precision poke” that magically steers it where it needs to go. But don’t take my word for it.
Does it make any difference?
“No. The double-touching that I’ve seen has been incidental contact, and that’s fingers brushing or hand brushing on a 40-pound piece of granite,” said Eugene Hritzuk, a Canadian curler based in Saskatoon who has been involved in competitive curling and coaching for more than 60 years.
“What can fingers brushing against a 40-pound piece of granite do in any event? You need the palm on your hand against that stone to do anything.”
Delivering a stone entails acute skills to slide on line and on pace, he said.
Once sliding on target and at the right speed, releasing the stone and then touching it with any force would cause it to veer off its intended line and speed, Hritzuk said. “That would not be advantageous to good execution.”
Canadian curling commentator John Cullen, who hosted the CBC podcast Broomgate: A Curling Scandal, said most top curlers will say that double-touching has no effect on the stone.
As well, most top curlers will double-touch at times and don’t think it’s a foul, he said.
“The idea that a top curler would let a rock go and then want to try to adjust it with their finger —it doesn’t seem like there’s any way you could get an advantage from that. It feels like it would be worse.”
But as I said, the rules are the rules, and I don’t think it’s wrong to enforce them.
It’s strange then how this is a common strategy among cheaters in curling, and that it is exactly what the Canadian team is known for, and it is illegal to do for precisely that reason.
this is a common strategy among cheaters in curling
Very confidently stated, but I really don’t think it is.
it is illegal to do for precisely that reason.
It’s illegal because it’s way simpler to implement a “no touching” rule than to try to define game-changing and non game-changing touches in a way that would be enforceable.
And again, I have absolutely no problem with the rule being enforced, even though I don’t think for a hot second that it impacted the game.
If it doesn’t help. Why risk doing it if it’s against the rules?
I’ve been watching the curling through these Olympics, and after this was done there were reports that other nations teams also have claimed to have done this before, and that they don’t think it requires extreme policing like the Swedish team suggested. The latter half of their argument led me to believe it happens a lot more than we knew before this incident and they’d rather this not become a constant issue. Sounds like the Swedish team has been trying to accuse the Canadian team of this for a few years now, and have gotten a reputation internationally about it as sore losers.
So it’s only “what the Canadian team is known for” because of the swearing response, and the fact it was broadcast everywhere after Swedish media blew up about it, and why they only had umpires watching as of the next day. It seems like the rest of the world doesn’t care about this, and is more upset about the aggressive response (which I think everyone can agree with)
Having curled myself,
dude…people do this when they over-rotate the stone after letting go of the handle. It’s not about steering or momentum forward. a slight drag will reduce the rotation.
There is no reason to be pointing a finger on release.
I would love to see someone go to a curling rink and demonstrate this this is remotely possible.
There is no reason to be pointing a finger on release.
I completely agree. There is absolutely no reason to do it, because there is no chance it will do anything.
What can fingers brushing against a 40-pound piece of granite do in any event?
This is a fun little physics problem.
The CoF of a curling stone on ice appears to be between .006 and .016 depending on fast its sliding.
So with a CoF of .006 that 40lb chunk of granite has an effective weight of just four ounces relative to that same chunk of granite at a CoF of 1. With a CoF of .016 it’s relative weight is 9 ounces.
So if the finger brush is in either the X or Y axis then basically anything more than what it takes to press a key on your keyboard will have an effect.
Trying to stop the stone from rotating is a whole different matter because then you’re working against it’s stored inertia and that will be much much higher. No way to calculate that though unless you know it’s rate of spin.
I appreciate you finding that article - interesting one.
I’m very much amateur curler, and can’t see how that tiny touch would impact it, but maybe it does at that level of competition.
Using a perfect shot to stop on the button with no spin, and energy= all kinetic (1/2mv2) =friction energy(F*deltaX), we get a release speed of 1.8m/s (with a .006 coefficient), and a 2.98m/s speed (with a 0.016 coefficient).
Using the same equation, I go ahead and rerun the number, but adding a distance of 0.1m, a value I used as a good approximation of a reliable accuracy of an Olympic throw, and a time of 0.2s (the approximate time I estimated based on the video), which means a deltaX2 of 0.36m, or 0.596m.
1/2mv2+fapplieddeltaX2 = ffrictiondeltaX Fapplied comes out to 0.326N to 0.526N which is a miniscule amount.
That seems to indicate that a tiny touch DOES have the potential to make a significant difference. Some sources say 0.25 to 0.5N is required for a keyboard press, so its roughly on par with that
But, how much of a difference does the sweeping make on stone speed? Its easy to say that tiny change can impact things, but how does it compare to, say, sweeping hard vs not sweeping?
This study shows a sweeping change of 45+/-8mm. Thus a change of 25% on top of that is not insignificant.
So the last question is, does it make sense for someone to train specifically by cheating this way rather than doing it right and just pushing off with a more accurate force? That’s likely going to be subjective, but seems difficult to me.
Who knows, maybe this is a crutch and it is making a difference. Sounds like they need to stop doing it any case, whether a way they’ve trained or not. Or wear a camera showing they don’t touch the rock and just hover their finger behind it.
I actually don’t believe that any of the accused in this care were intentionally cheating. Honestly it seems damn difficult to make any kind of consistently predictable trajectory change with the touches we’ve seen on video.
Your math and mine both show that a touch can impact the rock but I have to imagine that curling is like golf where you train and hone your swing (release) trying to make it as consistent and repeatable as possible. With that in mind you wouldn’t WANT a touch that mucks with the trajectory of the rock because you couldn’t ever do it precisely and repeatably enough to make it worthwhile.
In my opinion this controversy is happening because some curlers have an ingrained release routine that includes an unnecessary movement / flourish and competitors have decided to make issue of it because it’s getting close to giving a competitive advantage. That’s my two cents for what it’s worth.
A little finger poke ain’t gonna do shit.
And yet they risked getting caught breaking one of the major rules to do it. Why take that risk if doing it had no effect?
Check out the article I shared - many high-level curlers don’t consider it an infraction at all, let alone a major one. Even Oskar Eriksson, who made the original accusation, doesn’t seem to think it’s exclusive to Team Canada:
For us, it’s been a problem the last couple of years, so we think it’s good that everyone can play with the same rules. Hopefully it’s just getting better from this.”
It’s a dumb thing to do, though, and I’d be happy if people cleaned up their acts across the board.
A little finger poke ain’t gonna do shit.
a slight drag will prevent over -rotation of the stone.
Regardless, it’s a fucking rule.
I have said several time that I have no problem with the rule being enforced.
a slight drag will prevent over -rotation of the stone.
I really don’t think so, especially the light touch that I’ve seen on video (which, to be fair, was Homan’s throw on the women’s side). Again, these things are damn heavy, and you’re not going to push them around with a finger without making a visible effort.
I can’t imagine why people think it wouldn’t have an effect. This is a sport wear brooms have an effect. Why wouldn’t a push have an effect? And if it had no effect why do they do it?
It is really besides the point. It is against the rules, that team is a bunch of immoral cheats and so is everyone defending them pieces of shit you shouldn’t trust to pour you coffee.
The brooms affect the ice in front of the rock, which changes the rock’s behaviour as it moves over the swept patch. You have to exert quite a bit of force to push the rock directly.
And if it had no effect why do they do it?
Sometimes by accident, I’m sure. And probably more relevant, sometimes out of sheer laziness.
Alright. If you are gonna argue that was an accident then you just aren’t someone worth discussing things with. My god…
Insinuating that everyone always performs perfectly at the Olympics? I just watched a woman cry because she only landed a double-spin instead of a triple during the figure skating competiton. I supposed she didn’t land her jump on purpose too?
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe he accidentally touched the rock, but I am shocked you find it so unbelievable that someone could be so focused on where their rock is going that they didn’t pay enough attention to how their hand was positioned after they let go of the rock. High pressure situations create surprising mistakes.
Having been the one to originally use the word “accident,” I should probably amend that to “habitual.” A bad habit that people generally don’t call, that the Swedish team doesn’t appreciate (and is technically correct about).
Probably cuz he’s done more than once while he’s been at the olympics? Do you think that could be why I thought that?
Ah let’s be honest here… That was neither laziness nor accidental.
Look, I find extending a finger to give the stone a boop after release completely baffling…but there’s no chance at all that it affected the trajectory of the thing. You might as well “cheat” by blowing on it.
Accident? He’s done it multiple times. The women’s team did it too.
Yeah, as the article I linked indicated, a lot of players simply don’t consider it an infraction, and therefore don’t give a damn whether they do it.
And for probably the fifth time, I have no problem with the rule being enforced.
I think he thought the boop was going to do something. It was entirely deliberate. The guy clearly cheated.
The people in front of the stone with brooms are literally changing the trajectory of the stone without touching the stone at all. Of course a finger touch can have an effect.
Crossposted from hexbear
🐘
Throwing rocks at houses? Isn’t that illegal?
- Corner Gas
Pfff … I don’t even own a curling iron.
This is one of those sports that I don’t really understand the purpose of.
Outside of things like running or swimming, do ANY sports have a purpose?
I mean they make way too much money so you could argue yes I suppose. But curling is just… Weird… Like that thing where they chase wheels of cheese down a hill makes more sense than curling.
It makes sense if you understand its historical context. Its a traditional winter game from the 16th century when people were bored out of their minds in the cold ass scottland winters.
It’s got the highest boring/drama ratio outside of freestyle walking
Purpose? I’ve never got to play, but if there was a curling rink outside of a bar in the winter it would be tons of fun to play with friends. None near me though
Read on the subject and it seems a bit overblown, social media helping. After the controversy they started being more vigilant and then they “caught” a british curler also double touching.
That being said they need to adjust their release technique to make sure it doesn’t damage the reputation of Canadian curlers.
Also video replay and challenges could be a good idea.
I’m glad that Canadian guy throwing out the f-bombs apologized for it. I still think he was a dick but I can get behind the lashing out if it comes with repentance.
Do you mean “get over” instead of “get behind”?
I do. Thanks. I fixed it.
That’s cheap anti-Western propaganda provided by hexbear.
I mean, fuck Hexbear, but this is in fact all over the news. I’m sure it’s posted there in an anti-west bias, but that doesn’t make it untrue, and I absolutely demand better from my country than to cheat at the Olympics.
Yes, but that is not news at all. If they are serious about that, they could at least post a real article about it instead of just some social media comment no one knows its even real.
I mean the text in the op you see here is identical to the hexbear op. I opened it up and the vast majority are just talking about it as the news it is with some jokes scattered in. The account you’re replying to is one of a handful that have identical posting patterns, one of which being they near(?) exclusively post anti-china and anti-russia shit, deserved or otherwise.
The level of drama over this is fit for a Fargo-like movie.
How about a Fargo-like series, with 5 seasons?
It would proceed with the pacing of people brushing a curling stone to its inevitable stop.
I think this whole issue is just set up by Big Curling to make this sport interesting.
Oh, a curling soap? Now we need the revenge plot, the drama afterwards, the plot twist by never before mentioned characters and in the end it was all a dream.
Just make a raunchy show about the gay relationship of 2 curlers from opposing teams and suddenly women everywhere will be interested.
(Heated Rivalry for those uninitiated)
You’ve shared useful knowledge, thank you, honestly
Say sorry Canada geez
