Heteropatriarchal system
Initial reaction: there’s no way that’s real
After reading the comments: what the fuck
Very strange you haven’t absorbed this concept yet. “Bi women are straight but bi men are gay” is one of the most common tropes in the larger culture’s conception of sexual identity.
I don’t mean to brag, but I have an astonishing lack of culture.
bisexual women are hot
bisexual men are gross.
that’s the underlying assumption.
homosexuality is considered positive/attractive among women, and normalized. a woman doesn’t become less woman for being with a woman.
however, works the opposite for a guy. homosexuality makes a man less manly, or something.
Imagine being a dude and caring if people thought you were manly or not.
imagine being a dude and other people incessantly police your sexuality/masculinity and make comments on it almost everyday of your life.
I am shocked too wtf. I feel bad for men who went through that BS.
There is a weird bias against bisexual men in media. Someone I knew even once said she didn’t believe bisexual men existed, all men are either straight or gay. For me self identification is important. If someone tells me they’re straight but I believe they’re bisexual, I’m going to call them straight.
Yes, that was an episode of Insecure.
When I was fairly younger, I was in a relationship with a woman who told me that if she were to learn that I had sex with a man, especially bottoming but also topping (she didn’t use those terms, she used bad terms), then she would feel disgusted and betrayed and would never feel attracted to me again or see me as a man before I said to her that I was disappointed in her, that she had internalised homophobia and that she was a massive hypocrite. Her self proclaimed best male friend presented to the world as flamingly gay, and she was openly bi herself, not as in “I would totally fuck women cause I like the idea of it”, bus as in she had fucked women before and would do it again. Apparently she deserves to be fucked by a real man, which apparently bi men are not. So…yeah, you can be a loudly proclaimed ally AND a member of the LGBTQ community yourself, and still be a disgusting homophobe right alongside the best of bigots.
I have a similar story to share.
When I was in my early 20s I briefly dated a girl who told me she was having feelings for another woman and was being curious, she eventually broke up with me in order to be with her, but we remained good friends after that.
Eventually she came out as a lesbian and when I told her that I was bi she immediately ended our friendship all even yelled some slurs at me.
AFAIK she’s married with a guy and has kids now
Wow, that’s some intense double standards there.
Wow, that’s some intense double standards there.
That’s an odd way of saying “ubiquitous female standards”.
I know it’s a bit different, but there are cis women out there knowingly dating trans women who’ve likely had sex with men. So common yet, but I think ubiquitous isn’t accurate.
Actually now that I’m thinking about it I knew a girl who hooked up with her gay guy best friend.
I wasn’t commenting on this particular double standard anywhere as much as double standards in general; especially those which are almost exclusively one-way and “acceptable” for only women to hold. That a man trying to employ the same attitudes would be pilloried and castigated to the same degree that women would be lauded and supported.
You’ve just been all over this thread with your misogynistic hot takes and telling people how “all women” act. You should get off the internet for a while.
You’ve just been all over this thread with your misogynistic hot takes and telling people how “all women” act. You should get off the internet for a while.
Mmm-hm. Attempts to socially shame me into silence and an ad hominem on top of that, but not a whisper of a viable rebuttal.
That’s the problem with these censure attempts – always feelings over facts, instead of facts over feelings.
There is nothing you’ve said worthy of rebuttal.
There is nothing you’ve said worthy of rebuttal.
Ah - a sour grapes response!
Don’t worry, I know you had absolutely nothing to counter with once I saw the ad hominem. That’s the problem with intellectual bankruptcy, after all - nothing to work with except rage and other emotions. No facts, only feelings. So out come the personal attacks like the ad hominems, because rage and shame are the only usable tools left.
Sorry you had to experience this bullshit. I think people like that lack the emotional intelligence to see other people as equals. Instead they only value them as much as whatever personal satisfaction they extract out of them. Intrinsically you’ve lost nothing of value that day, but I know the sudden betrayal of the friendship you thought you had can be shocking and hurtful.
Maybe calling women lesbians instead of gay allows people to be homophobic while accepting lesbians. After all, the word was invented by men who thought women couldn’t be gay the way men can.
I’m curious what the people’s opinions are who downvoted you. Do they disagree or are they just angry? If they disagree they should have left a comment explaining why, so I’m assuming they’re irrationally upset and voicing their opinion would make them look bad maybe?
Eventually she came out as a lesbian and when I told her that I was bi she immediately ended our friendship
Can’t really imagine it. Even stubborn homophobes do not end friendship over someone coming out. A lot of them just become curious and eventually accepting. Am not LGBTQ+ though, so my judgement is kinda not reliable, but still.
The woman you’re talking about is exceptionally weird and she can go fuck herself
Your experience is valid, as it happened to you and none of us in this thread were there probably anyway.
In my experience, friends don’t end friendships over homophobia. They just suddenly become very busy and they have less and less time to spend with the person who comes out as bi.
‘Bi erasure’ is such a common phenomenon that we invented the term ‘bi erasure’.
Also I come from a different background to the most of those who are here. In Russia, we have this state propaganda that seals homophobia and since nobody is trusting the government propaganda, a lot of people are simply curious what it is to be gay (or bi, trans). And homophobia is not typical to what I hear from my peers in the west: it often has somewhat patronizing form of “don’t you know that if you say you’re gay, you’ll get a lot of trouble”. It was literally the thing I said to a lovely gay couple when we went to the bar in Saint Petersburg.
It’s adorable that you think “stubborn homophobes” wouldn’t end a friendship over someone coming out. I genuinely wish they did just become curious and eventually accepting, instead of immediately rejecting and intimidating and expressing feelings of disgust and revulsion.
In my 20s I was this homophobe until a friend came up to me. Maybe it’s my projection, idk
Yeah no i think you just valued that friendship, or your homophobia wasn’t as deep as many’s.
Honestly, while the exact way your ex handled the situation probably wasn’t ideal, this notion is really just an extension of the sexual puritanism that created homophobia in the first place. Imo, we should just accept that people’s sexual desires are what they are. If someone is turned off by bi guys, that’s fine - she doesn’t have to date them. Just like it is perfectly fine to be turned off by people with red hair, or people with annoying laughs, or people who are skinnier or fatter than whatever your personal preference is. Some people aren’t interested in shy people. Some people aren’t interested in dumb people. Some people aren’t interested in poor people. Does it suck when someone you like isn’t interested in you because of something you can’t control? Yes! But at the same time, people’s sexual preferences are also largely outside their control. So why demonize them for them?
Ugh… Thanks for whiteknighting my ex’s being biphobic with your moral relativism.
First of all I don’t know why you felt the need to inject sexual puritanism into the conversation, it’s not really a thing culturally in present day France, especially not in me or my exes mindset or social circles.
Second, don’t give me this your mileage may vary bullshit, some things are objectively bad. Having preferences is fine. Being phobic against a group of people is not. It’s fine to be more easily attracted to tall people, or short, or green eyed, or mixed raced or whatever physical characteristic, as long as it doesn’t turn into a fetish, and I won’t get into that whole other subject. But being repulsed or disliking an entire group of people because of a not morally wrong trait, is objectively wrong and textbook definition of being phobic. Being attracted more easily/often to white people with blue eyes and dimples rather than black people is fine, you like what you like. But being repulsed by all black people, or gingers, or Asians, for the sole reason they are black, or ginger, or Asian, is not. And no, nobody said you owe some random person a shag, just because they’re from a minority. But questioning why someone is repulsed by the entirety of group of people is legitimate. If there’s something universally morally wrong with a group, like fucking Nazis, it’s fine being repulsed. If there’s a rational reason to reject someone, like not wanting to get a in a relationship with a firefighter cause you don’t want a partner who may die in a fire one day, or your sexual orientation is not compatible, then it’s fine rejecting them but not disliking or being repulsed by them. If the only reason you dislike or are repulsed by a group of people is irrational, like they’re a different race or different sexual orientation, then it’s textbook bigotry/phobia, and that’s objectively wrong.
So to go back to the story with my ex; being a bisexual man is not a visual or physical trait. So if you’re a woman who likes having sex with men, and you were to reject or feel disgust for a man you otherwise are attracted to and enjoy having sex with, for the only reason that you can’t deal with the idea/image of him having sex with other men in the past, that’s textbook biphobia and homophobia, and that’s objectively wrong. If you feel so disturbed by this hypothetical, you feel the need to ask me, your partner at the time, a self declared straight man you are in a committed relationship with, if I hid sexual experiences with men from you, to assuage your irrational fears, you’re being biphobic and that’s just wrong. Again, if you’re a woman having sex with men, and don’t trust bisexual men because you think they will cheat with men, guess what, still biphobic, still wrong. Nobody’s demonizing anybody, moral relativism sucks, some things are in fact objectively wrong.
But being repulsed by all black people, or gingers, or Asians, for the sole reason they are black, or ginger, or Asian, is not.
So gay men should suck it up and give women a chance?
If the only reason you dislike or are repulsed by a group of people is irrational
Most of attraction/unattraction is not rational. It is emotional. It is a visceral feeling that doesn’t care about logic.
I, personally, don’t like mint chocolate. When I put it in my mouth, I feel a visceral feeling of disgust, and spit it out. There is no logic behind this - it is just what I like and don’t like.
not a visual or physical trait.
I also provided examples of being turned off by people who are shy, dumb, or poor. Again, these are not logical reasonings, but visceral responses to an individual and their traits.
Nobody’s demonizing anybody
You’re demonizing all women who like straight guys but are turned off by bi guys by calling them biphobic.
some things are in fact objectively wrong.
Objectivity is when something is true with no observer present. Morality requires an observer to decree what is right and wrong. This is why we have many philosophical schools of ethics, but only one school of physics (except at the very edge of research).
Goddamn you’re dumb
So gay men should suck it up and give women a chance?
…
“If there’s a rational reason to reject someone, like […]or your sexual orientation is not compatible, then it’s fine rejecting them but not disliking or being repulsed by them.”
Second paragraph, towards the end. So what else didn’t you bother to read / try to understand ?
Are the sexual orientations of gay men and women compatible ? Did I imply that anywhere ?
Most of attraction/unattraction is not rational. It is emotional. It is a visceral feeling that doesn’t care about logic.
I, personally, don’t like mint chocolate. When I put it in my mouth, I feel a visceral feeling of disgust, and spit it out. There is no logic behind this - it is just what I like and don’t like.
We’re not talking about food, were talking about people. If they’re not harming anyone, they deserve to be treated with respect, as equals. Treating people with respect includes overcoming any prejudice you may have internalised growing up. Also having a visceral reaction, not an excuse. Visceral reactions can be questioned, and their causes deconstructed. It is possible to grow up as a person even as adult. Racism is visceral reaction, and it still wrong. At least in the reality of moral objectivism that I live in.
But I am curious, do some groups of people give you a “visceral feeling of disgust” like mint chocolate gives you ? What groups of people would those be ?
I also provided examples of being turned off by people who are shy, dumb, or poor. Again, these are not logical reasonings, but visceral responses to an individual and their traits.
Yeah, and you can choose whomever you like as a partner, but repulsion for an entire group of people not doing any harm like poor people or shy people, is the realm of irrational hatred or fear, and that’s never ok. Or are you saying it’s ok or normal being viscerally repulsed by poor or shy people ?
Again visceral feeling are not an excuse, you’re have higher reasoning, and are supposed to at least try to understand and control your feelings if you want to treat other people fairly. Otherwise there’s no sense of accountability for your actions, you just go by pretending you’re a mere vessel to your emotions, and stay indifferent to how your behaviour affects other people.
You’re demonizing all women who like straight guys but are turned off by bi guys by calling them biphobic.
If the only thing turning off a woman in a man is that he is bisexual then yeah, that’s what being prejudiced is. Same guy, same level of physical attractiveness, just as good a person, but straight : desirable. Exact same person but bisexual man : repulsive and less than a real man. That’s a biphobic woman, she doesn’t see bisexual men as worthy of the same level of respect as straight men, as equals to straight men.
But I get the sense that your ethics and mine don’t mix.
Objectivity is when something is true with no observer present. Morality requires an observer to decree what is right and wrong. This is why we have many philosophical schools of ethics, but only one school of physics (except at the very edge of research).
Look. I’m not a philosopher or a historian of Ideas, so my knowledge of moral relativism and moral objectivism or universalism, is at a highschool level, so I think what I’m saying and how I’m saying is perfectly understandable in every day language without resorting to philosophical semantics (and frankly I don’t even know why you brought up physics in a story about social issues).
In my stance of moral objectivism, I hold my ex accountable for her prejudice against bisexual and gay men, because it’s a stance where seeing bisexual men as inferior and repulsive is wrong regardless of your personal history, culture and upbringing, since being a bisexual man does no harm to anyone and if that bothers you you should get a life.
In your stance of what I see as moral relativism, it’s unfair to hold my ex accountable for her prejudice because the context of her “visceral feeling of disgust” is what is truly important, and she’s just unjustly misunderstood.
Those two stances are not compatible.
your sexual orientation is not compatible, then it’s fine rejecting them but not disliking or being repulsed by them.”
I mean, I’m referring to sexual repulsion. This is typically what people are referring to when they talk about having a preference against some person or other. It manifests as a visceral negative reaction, very similar to what one might feel if they think about eating something they find gross. A gay man would find the idea of sleeping with a woman repulsive. He can still treat women with respect. In the same way, a woman can find the idea of sleeping with a bi guy repulsive, and can still treat bi men with respect. This is an incompatibility in sexual orientation.
Same guy, same level of physical attractiveness, just as good a person, but straight : desirable. Exact same person but bisexual man : repulsive and less than a real man
I could just as easily swap in what kind of shoes the guy wears, the guy’s political affiliation, the accent the guy has, the way he has chosen to style his hair, or literally anything else.
But I am curious, do some groups of people give you a “visceral feeling of disgust” like mint chocolate gives you ? What groups of people would those be ?
Certainly. I’m straight. The idea of sleeping with another man gives me a visceral feeling of disgust. This is fine. I am completely comfortable admitting this, because this is my sexual preference.
Or are you saying it’s ok or normal being viscerally repulsed by poor or shy people?
It is 100% okay to feel whatever feelings one feels. If the thought of sleeping with someone who is poor or shy is repulsive to you, then that is fine. You don’t have to sleep with them.
and frankly I don’t even know why you brought up physics in a story about social issues
Because I don’t think you know what the word “objective” means.
The Aztecs thought it was right to sacrifice children to the gods by cutting their hearts out. We don’t. Moral relativism says that both of these points of view are equally valid in their respective cultures. I happen to think that this is more or less the correct point of view, since any kind of objective morality is literally impossible because all morality is is values, and values are pure subjectivity. But that’s an academic distinction.
My point fits squarely within good ol’ fashioned liberal western ethics, which you identified as “does no harm to anyone”.
Being sexually repulsed by bisexual men, and expressing this preference by simply not sleeping with them harms no one.
I could give a detailed answer like I did till now but why bother.
No to all you’ve just said.
Also moral relativism and nihilism is edgelord garbage, I thought so when I was a highschooler and I always will. You can and you should have some universalism regarding morals. You shouldn’t fuck children, no matter the culture or time in history. Pain is also universal and so is the evil of inflicting it for pleasure or callousness. I could go on but you and I have nothing to say to each other.
Sounds like you’ve realized I’m right but just don’t want to admit it.
yeah, it’s super weird how desperate people are to rationalize this nonsense.
like… being turned off by someone’s race. it’s just your phobia/racism. it’s not a ‘preference’ like people like to claim. esp if your ‘turned off’ feelings are a product or assumption about that person’s sexuality/race being a crude stereotype or entrenched in outdated nonsense. neither of those things is a choice either.
it’s the idea that they are disgusted/turn off by. it’s not a part of sexuality at all, it’s that they associate negative traits with a certain sexuality. that’s messed up. and it’s also not really rejecting the person, it’s rejecting the category.
IME this is incredibly common.
I had a bi girlfriend who was also super uncomfortable with the idea of me being with another man.
I don’t know how common it is, but I’ve had several past girlfriends express internalised homophobia against gay men, bisexuals or lesbians, and that’s too damn high a number since as french leftist, I don’t harmonize with conservative women. When I was younger I was naive or dumb enough to think that we would both grow as people in the relationship and some of my values would rub up on them. Now that would an instant curtain call for me, you can grow up as person in your own time, I have better things to do.
I had a bi girlfriend who wanted me to be bi. I’ve seen it go every which way. I’m not sure what the overall social trend is, but people are individuals and can defy your hopes and expectations of them in strange ways, for better or for worse.
Apparently she deserves to be fucked by a real man, which apparently bi men are not.
I would categorize it as a weird fetish and leave her by herself with it
While I there is a kernel of truth about the whole gay men stereotype I can’t say I ever met a girl who would date or dumped a guy if she learned he had a bi/gay phase. The only thing that comes close was the guy who got dumped cause he cheated on his gf with her gay best friend.
Hell I had a girl actually try to hook up with me because she heard a rumor I did something with a twink (I hadn’t) and wanted set up some weird love triangle with her bi twink friend. I backed away from that one cause it was clear the guy crushed bad for her and there was no way that relationship was going to end with everyone walking away content.
I’m in my mid thirties, and I’m a bi woman who tends to go for bi men. I was once chatting about one of my exes with my dad and same aged stepsister, when she expressed deep surprise that I would be willing to date a man who had dated a man. My dad agreed, which is par for the course, but I could not for the life of me get a believable answer from my stepsister as to why that would be a dealbreaker.
She had been part of the GSA in one of the most progressive towns in America and was at that time in first cohort of women to join a previously men-only fraternity at her college, so she definitely falls under the progressive umbrella.
I literally can’t think of a reason except for donating blood, but that wasn’t it.
It may be a byproduct of some dating issues from before her time dating that got passed down to her. Namely, that lots of gay men were in the closet, and ended up leaving their wife/girlfriend when they came out. And that could have carried through to women thinking it was that, because it’s easier to think the person leaving you doesn’t want women, not just doesn’t want you.
Hopefully that mentality just disappears on its own after awhile. I think it’s already on its way out.
I literally can’t think of a reason except for donating blood, but that wasn’t it.
What is the correlation between donating blood and being homophobic ?
For a long time (at least through the late 2010s and possibly still now, I’m no longer a good candidate to donate for other reasons), you couldn’t donate if you were a man who had sex with men (MSM) or if you had had sex with a MSM recently (6 months-2 years). Your own condom use was irrelevant.
I did once decide to stick with hands only with someone because I had an appointment to donate blood later that week. My stepsister wasn’t aware of that restriction though and I can’t imagine it’s the presiding reason why a lot of even queer women aren’t interested in bi men, given the demographics of blood donation.
There are a lot of wild things that preclude you from donating blood depending on where you live though, including time spent in the UK during the mad cow disease spike, even if you were a vegan. I understand that blood donation organizations are working with such large numbers and such a small margin for error that they would rather exclude a thousand good candidates than let one bad candidate donate, but it ends up being extremely discriminatory. I looked for some recent numbers, and it is true that even today the majority of new HIV cases occur in MSM or people who have sex with MSM, but given how widespread HIV suppression treatment is (in the US), correct condom usage reduces that risk to nearly zero.
The FDA actually revised their donor rules for LGBT donors, so many blood donation places, the red cross for example, no longer have this restriction.
Gay and bi men are often excluded from donating due to higher HIV risk I believe.
I mean you kinda said the reason yourself: “[she] join[ed] a previously men-only fraternity at her college”. Of course I’m only speculating.
The people she surrounded herself with probably thought that way and thus she thought that way. Most people do not think critically about their beliefs very much, yes even most progressives are just progressives because of the people around them.
Tbh, the fraternity was pretty inclusive. It wasn’t required that they go coed, they just decided to. I do wonder what she’s like now that she’s a lot further removed from her hometown, but I know she’s at least still heavily anti-trump.
So, this woman is an asshole and you big brained your way to blaming men for it??? lol Did you get a temp ban from Reddit or something?
Dude, you have got to stop taking all these ricochets. Not everything is a point to tally in the war between mars and venus.
If he’s a hot twink, then yeah no that’d be fine with me. Perfectly understandable.
I’m a woman who is straight AF, not a bicurious-bone in my body that I’ve discovered yet, and I’m having a casual fling with a bisexual dude. It doesn’t bother me at all, he’s hot as fuck, sweet as hell, we have a good time together, and I have better things to do with my life than sit around and brood about the gender of his previous partners.
But why do you care? Why does it matter? How does it affect you in any material way?
Why do they care that he’s bisexual? They’re saying they don’t.
Wow. I can’t read at all. I think I was on painkillers when I commented. Lol
Haha, no problem, yo. :p
There are legitimate reasons for avoiding bi people in a straight relationship. Straight folks use contraceptives a fair bit more frequently than gay folks, for instance, leading to lower sti rates. Risk of infection is a legitimate concern and an awkward conversation in a fledgling relationship.
But, from what I’ve seen, it’s largely just not understanding how you’re meant to act in a relationship with a bi person and ingrained bigotry. Everyone is at least a little jealous, but you can’t remove your partner from the entire populace. Half is a big ask but doable. 100% is just abuse. Despite the world becoming safer and more accepting, we’re still dumb animals that ping ancient and irrelevant instruction sets, and ostracism is one of the oldest.
aaand thats why most of them just shut the fuck up and keep the past adventures to themselves
you usually don’t talk in detail about previous women either.
I’m straight and I couldn’t give a fuck less who a partner fucked before me so long as it was legal and ethical.
MLM actually have higher condom use rates than MLW. It wasn’t the case before AIDS, because they didn’t have to worry about pregnancy and all of the STIs were pretty treatable, but they pivoted once they had a compelling reason.
You have to check that with EVERY sexual partner, not just gay or bi ones.
Username checks out
26
Could you list a point I made that you’d disagree with? Aside from contraception use, I take that one back.
Everyone is at least a little jealous, but you can’t remove your partner from the entire populace. Half is a big ask but doable. 100% is just abuse.
The idea that you somehow cannot trust a bi person because they have more potential partners is patently ridiculous. Forbidding your partner from seeing people of an entire gender is similarly ridiculous. I’m not sure what your point is here exactly, but this perspective is certainly sad.
I suspect that men who have sex with men are more prone to STIs because they have a lot more sex with a much wider pool of partners, not because they’re less careful statistically.
* literal propaganda from the Aids epidemic
Some people in a general sense are sluts. This is an old assumption that bi and gay folk are more sexually careless that hasn’t really been true since the aids crisis.
Fun fact, wherever there is stigma or barriers in seeking health care or populations that are discriminated against you see higher rates of STIs because people wait longer to check on things that go wrong and don’t catch them before they take hold. This includes immigrant populations, religious minorities in hostile cultures, queer people, racial minorities, homeless populations… They aren’t all rawdogging it, these groups often feel they can’t be honest with a doc or fear being rejected from healthcare situations. Some queer folk have trauma around medical care in the past. Where management and early testing drops off disease transmission becomes more common.
You will see old studies positing the multiple partners thing but the cutting edge data has seen this is a problem faced by multiple populations with the core of the problem sourced and traceable to the degree of stigma against the patients.
Jesus christ, if you’re so insecure you can’t bear the thought of your partner being in proximity to ANYONE else, maybe you’re the abuser here
To be clear, this paragraph where I state that it’s largely bigotry and insecurity that drives potential partners away, it read as though it was written about me and my specific perspective on my dating bi people?
it read like this: “to be fair, sometimes hitting your spouse is justified. after all you can’t have them talking back to you, right? wait, what, you think I’m talking about my own experiences and perspective?”
like, yes dude, I dont even know you beyond the things you shared. as far as I’m aware, your entire existence is what you said, and the person behind the screen is kind of irrelevant.
not dating someone bi because of STI risk is ignorant and bigoted. I get that it’s a perspective. it’s a shitty misinformed one. no need to explain it here unless you’re advocating for it. jealousy is equally shitty. it’s controlling. essentially what the perspective says is that bi people are harder to control.
i get the desire to understand the mind of hatred… but as they say, maybe not every time we see a literal devil we should think “hey that guy could use an advocate!”
dont worry about it though. be well
Dude… Bi people still do monogamy and a lot of them don’t want polyamory or cheating. If you have a problem keeping to a single person that’s a you thing, don’t project it onto others.
Calling it “abuse” is really fucking weird.
Apologies for copy pasting but,
To be clear, this paragraph where I state that it’s largely bigotry and insecurity that drives potential partners away, it read as though it was written about me and my specific perspective on my dating bi people?
It was more your entire second paragraph that hinges on the idea that just because bi people are potentially attracted by both sexes that it is unfair and “abuse” to expect bi folk to desire monogamy or make monogamy work. That’s a pretty old fashioned form of biphobia that projects that a bi person is either incapable of being satisfied by any one person like a straight or gay person is or that they are more likely to stray or be a problem for their partners.
It isn’t abuse to expect a partner to be faithful.
Some bi people cheat or go in for polyamory because some people cheat or go in for polyamory regardless of gender or sexually . Bi people are not especially predisposed. Projecting your own wandering eye and assuming that is a more universal problem for people of a different sexuality that negates their viability in a form of romantic relationship isn’t cool.
That was my point. I get the impression folks here haven’t dated immature people before
I’ve seen so many cases of staunch progressive groups weaponize a guys sexuality as soon as they have a falling out with him. Its like these people never believed what they were saying. People are so spineless and have no morals.
In my older age I’ve come to the realization that a lot of people join movements just to belong, not because they actually hold the conviction. I think in fact there are people who aren’t capable of even having a conviction, just bouncing between whatever expressive habits are most convenient socially
You see it with things like politics and religion too
My favourite is the ones who scream about slut shaming then use “virgin” as an insult.
Although that seems to have fallen out of fashion lately.
That specific insult I mean, not hypocrisy.
People always say stuff to me like, “You definitely live with your parents”. That one is super common. Like, who cares? It’s weird for me personally because I moved out over 20 years ago, but nothing wrong if I did live with my folks. It’s a world as hard as stone out there.
It’s weird for me personally because I moved out over 20 years ago,
Lol exactly. I get that comment every now and then and all I can do is laugh at their lame attempt.
Living with your parents while working = being rich speedrun
Also, “you live in a basement”. I mean, it’s technically true. I spend a lot of time in my office that happens to be in a basement of a house I own.
Well, the bank owns most of it, but the point stands.
It’s not out of fashion at all, “virgin” just became “incel”. The intent is identical.
Not at all. Incels are almost overwhelmingly misogynistic and into a lot of weird pseudo scientific shit. Incels are those claiming they deserve women but at the same time don’t deserve them because they’re too beta and all the rich alphas are getting 10 chicks a second, so they excuse their lack of success with dating in a lot of made up bullshit to delude themselves into never improving as people.
Incels are not just virgins, they’re basically a cult, and thinking people use it just as ‘virgin’ is either deliberately obtuse or ignorant
Not really. Incel implies a level of indoctrination into a misogynistic POV that has you convinced that you’re better off alone. It’s not the same as insulting someone for simply not having had sex yet.
edit: not that I think either is a productive thing to call another person
Incel implies a level of indoctrination into a misogynistic POV
No one is thinking this deeply when they call a man who just said/did something they don’t like an “incel”. People just use it mindlessly as an insult, same as with “virgin”.
Maybe if they’re really young and weren’t on the internet when the word became popular, sure
I think people who haven’t been been the target of insults since high school (or maybe ever?) forget how petty and uncreative it often is.
The point insulting someone isn’t to be truthful, it’s to be hurtful or put them down.
With leftists and progressives the louder they are about their beliefs and virtues the less they actually follow those through. Just like with religious people, it’s just virtue signaling.
Sadly, this is a human trait overall. It’s deep in the lizard brain section from early in our evolution.
If someone is part of a group and then does something seen as against the interest of the group (or groupthink, really) then any tiny little thing can become a trait leveraged against them. Either the person on the outs basically accepts demotion on the social ladder and hopes for re-acceptance from the group as subservient to everyone, or they’re just out for good. It’s one of our worst traits from a rational perspective, it’s violent and irrational monkey-brain shit, and likely made for small homogeneous, tight-knit groups that could count on each other to survive harsh environmental conditions.
FAKE: anon thinks girls are real GAY: anon wants to fuck a twink
People like this are the progressive version of evangelicals. And like with Christianity they don’t get called out enough to keep it from becoming a major problem.
Villainizing male sexuality is why we have a whole new generation boys heading into alt right circles and so far the response has been a variant of telling them to ‘man up.’ And its going to get a lot worse before it gets even a little better.
OMG i’ve been saying this for years and every time I get bashed for it (in liberal/left/prog circles)
Because you can’t suggest that the (liberal/left/blue/prog/nonfash) aren’t perfect or are doing something not ideal
This is the root of the problem with much of the discussion around male identity online.
Women finally, and rightfully, gained a voice, and plenty of dudes listened. Many of them, not really understanding feminism as an academic discipline or having any real sympathy towards any aspect of being a man, used that voice to point of the many issues faced by women in the world and to fight for women.
Where this falls apart is that because of the lack of real understanding regarding feminism and the concept of patriarchy, a lot of it boiled down to “shut up, the women are talking” and “we don’t care about your problems”
None of this makes the problems away, none of this is really geared towards equality, and much of it is just switching the genders on deeply toxic patriarchal power structures that were used to oppress women for centuries.
When you think about how stupid 90% of the people involved on both sides of this discourse online are, it’s of little surprise so many women went looking for easy answers from hucksters who pitched exploitation and oppression as empowerment.
I really liked bell hooks’s approach to this. She focuses on incorporating male problems into feminism as a focal point, not excluding them.
Interesting. What’s a good place to start reading what bell hooks said about this?
The Will to Change by bell hooks is the book you want! Short read too, but very meaningful. I’ve been making my way through it extremely slowly for several months, trying to digest everything. It’s interesting to see how she often conflicts with a lot of contemporary feminists as well.
The Will to Change by bell hooks is the one book that made me feel seen as a person. Usually I open a feminist book with the suspicion that the author will be like “all men are evil” and that usually makes me care less about feminism for a while. But that book was a pleasant surprise, it spoke to me and not at me.
Well said! I like the acknowledgment that men being at the table can help and may be better to address patriarchy and other problems that face everyone. We all move forward together or no one does.
none of this is really geared towards equality, and much of it is just switching the genders on deeply toxic patriarchal power structures that were used to oppress women for centuries.
I think this is a little over the top…
deleted by creator
they don’t get called out enough to keep it from becoming a major problem.
idk man 9 times out of 10 I hear someone talking about progressives, they’re exclusively referring to the most hypocritical ones. Like, when does anyone talk about the normal progressives that just want good things for everyone? That’s boring.
I don’t count conservatives
okay, but then, who else is talking about progressives?
I always notice that the women that jump in and out of lesbian and straight relationships. Are usually slutty skanks. Just my personal experience.
This post is bi-reasiure
