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Today we’re very excited to announce the open-source release of the Windows Subsystem for Linux. This is the result of a multiyear effort to prepare for this, and a great closure to the first ever issue raised on the Microsoft/WSL repo:
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I know there’s a lot of hate for Microsoft on Lemmy, but WSL is one of the best parts of Windows. It’s really powerful and well integrated to Windows. Since I still can’t leave for pure Linux install, I’m glad for WSL.
I am legit excited to install WINE Subsystem for Linux
Or how about KDE on ReactOS on WSL?
The possibilities are endless
ReactOS has SUCH potential. I really wanna see it thrive.
Unfortunately building it was a disaster a few years ago, I should give it another go.
I still will never understand why it’s not called Linux Subsystem for Windows.
There’s a trademark for Linux so Microsoft can’t name a product starting with Linux.
So they can use Linux in the name, just not at the beginning? We’re so stupid. Can they do Windows Subsystem for Coke? Or Windows Subsystem for McDonald’s? Or Windows Subsystem for MacOs?
Good gravy.
Disney presents Good Gravy®️
Sorry, “gravy” is a registered trademark of Gravy, Inc.: https://trademarks.justia.com/854/89/gravy-85489026.html
I think this only applies to using the word “gravy” for payment services or a website referring to such a payment service. There was a prior trademark on the word for use with plush toy products.
Yes, there are a bunch of trademarks on the word “gravy”, in different industries. I was going to link to that one you mentioned, because for some reason despite being plush toy products, the company holding it was Bob Evans. But it’s since been canceled, and the company name doesn’t appear on the page, so I chose an active trademark instead.
I think trademark law has a strange history in the US
I’m sure it does, I was just being facetious.
Not in the spirit of free software, if you ask me.
Maybe they just named it like the previous attempt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Services_for_UNIX
I got hung up on this before too but it’s apparently “Windows Subsystem for (using) Linux”
So besides the brownie points, im curious what having it open sourced will benefit. Not like you can fork it to run on a different OS. You can make some extensions but to do what? You can’t really tie it further in to the host OS unless you know of some undocumented Win32 APIs.
Maybe im just not thinking creatively enough.
im curious what having it open sourced will benefit
MS won’t have to pay their own people to work on it anymore.
Not like you can fork it to run on a different OS.
For WSL1? yep that’s effectively impossible.
WSL2 is effectively just a wrapper around the kernel virtualization support and a bundling format, as long as whatever image you run talks to the host properly (like any other virtualised OS would) it’d run.
They released their code as MIT which is far more permissive than I was expecting. I was expecting some sort of proprietary license.
But they need to keep doing stuff like this. Devcontainers for VS Code is still proprietary and keeps me from running codium.
Thanks for nothing Microsoft
Ah, the Linux Subsystem for Windows (MSFT has never been great at naming things) is finally open source, hooray…
Now do it with rest of the operating system, and I may, possibly have a reason to care.
Windows, you mean? Please no, thanks, I don’t need to see anything of that garbage
Don’t you think this is another Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish strategy from Microsoft?
I think it’s an attempt to keep people on their platform who need easy access to a unix-like shell. Linux has it and so does mac os. Windows didn’t until they introduced wsl.
Well windows had cygwin and mingw
I had to move back to those a few times instead of using WSL during the early days. There were quite a few growing pains.
Fixed it fully by installing Linux.
That’s exactly what it is. Any time now you’ll see “the best way to run Linux: on windows” or similar.
Does Lemmy even know what EEE means anymore or are we regurgitating words we heard from some article now?
What’s it going to embrace and extend? WSL has existed for ages and is just a way to run Linux in a convenient container on top of Windows. That’s it. It’s not an attempt to “extenguish” Linux, literally just make the development experience on Windows less painful so people don’t switch to another OS. This has nothing to do with EEE.
Open sourcing it with a permissive license can only be a good thing, and again they’re doing it to be more appealing to devs and maybe get free bug fixes from the open source community. It isn’t some grand conspiracy. But of course this community will react to news of “proprietary blob is now open source” with pessimism.
literally just make the development experience on Windows less painful so people don’t switch to another OS.
You said it right there yourself and don’t seem to realize it.
Why have a laptop or a dual boot with Linux when you can now more easily stay on the proprietary OS ?
This is called market retention.
Preventing migration to another OS, another software ecosystem.
The ‘Embrace’ and ‘Extend’ parts of EEE.
And if it works, then in a few years, MSFT will figure out how to further monetize some other part of its software ecosystem that is either reliant on, or much much easier for an average user of WSL to use than switching their whole setup or stack all the way over to Linux.
Call that EEM for ‘monetization’ if you want, or ‘enshittify’ for another E…
…the commonly used term to describe software or services or platforms that suddenly jump over to making previously free stuff cost money, put ads everywhere, break the previously free features and put the ‘new’ working versions behind some kind of paywall…
… All after you’ve captured your market and dominated as many competitors as possible.
Standard monopolist strategy throughout the entite history of capitalism, same general concept goes back even further.
Why have a laptop or a dual boot with Linux when you can now more easily stay on the proprietary OS ?
This is called market retention.
Preventing migration to another OS, another software ecosystem.
The ‘Embrace’ and ‘Extend’ parts of EEE.
That’s stretching the definition to the point it’s nearly unrecognisable.
What the term meant was for things like Internet Explorer, where MS adopted an existing standard (Embrace), started changing it in incompatible ways (Extend), while using their market power to lock out competitors (Extinguish)
e.g. IE used an incompatible method for sizing and laying out elements than any other browser, so a site that laid out properly in NN4 looked broken in IE6, and vise versa. So most devs targeted IE6 as it was more popular, and NN4 users got more and more broken sites.
ACPI was similar, Windows had an extremely lax implementation of it, so motherboards often shipped with bugs that Windows would ignore but would stop anything else from booting. Intentional? Doesn’t really matter, since it sure was helpful in slowing the adoption of things like Linux, that had to come up with workarounds for all the broken hardware.
Linux is a standard they have Embraced.
As a for-profit tech monopolist, they will, very predictably, Extinguish the ability of people who use WSL instead of just actually Linux… to be easily able to… fully transition to a competitor (Linux).
The Extend part just looks different, because the scope of software competition offered by Linux is much more vast than just a particular standard for a particular kind of software.
… Potato, potato.
I used to work for Microsoft.
The ethos is absolutely still there: Create vendor lock in, create ecosystem dependence in every way possible, as well as in ways that 99% of people would not even think are possible.
EEE is just the term they came up with to describe their own, overarching, monopolist general strategy, and if you wanna quibble over the precise technicalities of an internal corporate slogan, well then you’d be the kind of person MSFT is filled with that made me no longer want to work for them.
Careful now, you’re gonna be called a bootlicker for that lol. Everything Microsoft do is evil according to Lemmings.
You’re 100% right though. People on here regurgitate catchphrases and terms that they heard other people in their echo chamber use without understanding what they mean, and because the person who they heard using it also didn’t know what they meant, it’s just a comedy of incorrect usage of terms.
It’s amazing that people still don’t understand Microsoft’s goals despite them being very open and telling everyone over and over and over - they want to be the defacto solutions on everything, so their stuff needs to run on everything. They will start releasing all of their stuff on linux eventually, because even if only 1% of people use Linux, Microsoft want them using Microsoft services.
Normally I would say yes, but WSL is so incredibly necessary for a developer that it might be legit.
Personally I never use it except for docker desktop. I just use powershell
I don’t think that, as Microsoft hasn’t done a lot (any?) of that stuff in recent years. It’s good to be cautious but really what is the problem with opening the source for something that already existed for a while and is embraced by many?
It’s because they have pivoted to subscriptions on office, ads on windows and general data harvesting.
I think it’s more embrace. They have to compete against so many more entities now.
This is my thought, they’ve all but lost the battle for cloud servers and they’d rather the developers computers were Windows. WSL allows that.
they’ve all but lost the battle for cloud servers
Azure is enormous, what are you talking about?
Azure is their primary revenue source now, they didn’t lose anything
Yeah but imagine if they could collect licence fees after every AWS server as well.
The world is not enough for these companies.
My client is spending waaaaaaay more money on Microsoft Online than it ever used to on software licenses. Every single user in the business is costing 🇦🇺$30 per month alone just for their Office suite. That’s before you get to the Azure stuff. Some hosted apps cost over 🇦🇺$1k/month to host in Azure.
Before you go too strongly after Microsoft for charging so much, this is cheaper than what we used to pay for running our own SharePoint, Exchange etc farms as well as the infrastructure required to host websites/database etc. All that has been outsourced to Microsoft Online and saves significant money.
Microsoft is doing very well out of its own cloud fees and can cope with AWS, Google and all the smaller private cloud operations getting some of that action.
I know they are doing very well, trust me, I’ve seen the inside of the beast. It’s not Microsoft either, any megacorp will talk to you in terms of how much they lost by not fully monopolising a market segment.
And that is my point, not that they don’t make insane amounts of money, but that it will never be enough.
Poorly. WSL is awesome but it’s I/O performance is not at a level which will make developers on bigger projects happy.
I think you’re probably right. Microsoft seems less invested in winning an operating system battle at this point. They’re positioning services and abstractions that care less about the end device’s operating system, more so that they’re at least on that device.
I wouldn’t be surprised we see Microsoft “embrace” Proton and Wine in the next 5 to 10 years as it’s far easier to let “the community” predominantly handle supporting legacy Windows versions that have to handle it themselves.
They can’t suddenly lose that entire OS revenue machine however and would need to transition. But I doubt that Redmond are naive to the disruption Wine and Proton are having and how technical users are starting to jump ship.
Xbox is transitioning to “release on everything”, so their upcoming games will all work on proton (apart from COD etc that have anti-cheat, although wouldn’t surprise me if they make that linux compatible eventually). Microsoft would rather you subscribe to game pass to play their games on Linux than not subscribe to game pass and not give them any money. It wouldn’t surprise me if they eventually released a Linux Xbox app.
No real reason to extinguish here, Microsoft is a services company and can offer those services on Windows and Linux.
I’d wager you’re more likely to see an official compatibility layer on Linux supported by Microsoft before you see them move to extinguish.
That was 30 years ago, you’re going to have to move on one day.
Docker doesn’t exist in a usable state on Windows, so its an attempt to allow management of servers using Windows, as Windows Server fades away from usage entirely.
Docker works with windows containers, plus wsl can be used as the backend for docker. I use it all the time
That’s their playbook. But honestly I think anyone who plays with WSL will either get a taste and begin learning/transitioning to Linux or device to stick with their “safe” windows machine
WSL is just a way to actually get some shit done when there’s a terrible business reason for requiring a native Windows install.
My Microsoft Surface became vastly more useable once I installed Linux on it.
WSL allows me to develop in a Linux environment while still enjoying my very custom Windows setup and programs that I am used to. So no, WSL did not make me choose a side, but instead helps me to get the best of both worlds at once.
Maybe. But Microsoft owns the workplace, so when you get a job they’ll demand you can only use Windows, or if you’re lucky enough to be allowed to use Linux, the Microsoft management software will suck so much you’ll want to use Windows. Microsoft is silently implementing their EEE strategy, and this is only a small part of that. Before long they’ll release their AI-focused cloud-connected Linux distro with Windows Desktop compatibility.
It could be another Embrace, Extend, and Extinguish strategy from Microsoft, because if the increase in Linux user share leads to an increase in malware, most of those users aren’t experts.
So there will be an increase in antivirus software for Linux, but that will also lead to DRM in Linux, and Linux may become what I swore to destroy. While BSD distributions, Redox OS, and other systems take over to become the new Linux as it was in its beginnings.
Anyone who’s running WSL is probably closer to an “expert” than the average windows user
I wish people would let the EEE meme die. It’s not the 90’s anymore grandpa. Parroting the same pointless meme without applying critical thinking gets old.
Are you suggesting an alternative motive for Microsoft that does beyond profit?
The profit is getting nerds on the internet to fix bugs in wsl for free
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China? Maybe don’t just toss around non sequiturs.
deleted by creator
long obsolete dos text editor
It’s a full rewrite in Rust, with no direct relation to the old program.
What kind of axe do you need?
one of those pointy glass hammers should do it
for breaking windows
Fair play to Microsoft here. Hopefully we see some pull requests from non-ms employees and a better wsl experience for us all
can some one ELI5… is this a way for me to run windows stuff using linux? OR is this for linux stuff to run in windows?
I really want an easier way to run windows stuff in linux, my hatred grows with every notification, update, attempt to advertise to me, and interference in my workspace. but trialing mint is great but the ultimate test is failing with a few programs not really playing nice with linux.
It’s to run Linux stuff on Windows.
It should be called ENIW.
This is for running Linux programs on Windows. ELI5: some programs are made to run on windows, and some programs are made to run on Linux. Microsoft made a thing for windows that makes it able to run programs that were supposed to run on Linux. That thing is called Windows Subsystem for Linux.
What windows programs do you have that are not working well on Linux? There are various tools to run windows programs on Linux, and some work better than others for specific programs. I have had good luck with bottles recently, you might try that if you have not already. Other options I’ve used with great success in the past: ploy on Linux, Lutris, and wine directly. They all us wine at some level, but have tried and tested configuration for various programs to run well, and help with the installation and management of different wine versions. Depending on your windows programs, one option might be to run windows in a VM on Linux, to run those few programs. Another benefit of this way is that your Linux system is somewhat isolated from your windows programs. This can help with privacy and security.
What programs you struggling with on Linux?
I’d say any of the multitude of programs that don’t work on linux.
Yeah cool but what? Have they been reported to wine or whoever would be able to fix it?
I’ve moved my whole operating environment to Linux and have had to use Windows for one single application in the last four to five years. It was a firmware update tool for non-computer related equipment.
I still think it’s funny that the best way to run Linux on the desktop is via installing it through the Windows App Store
Oh you poor fool, if only you knew how good things could be…
Best?
not in the slightest.
Most convenient…maybe?
I don’t understand this.
Does this mean Windows programs and exe files will now run natively on linux?
Edit: unclear why someone asking a question gets a 50/50 downvote to upvote response…
“OOOOHHHH!!! THIS GUY DOESN’T KNOW ALL THE THINGS I KNOW!!! BOOOOO!!!”
Yes, as long as your Linux distro is Windows.
In my view it’s a Linux subsystem for Windows.
Why the name is the other way around, I’ll never understand.
The original WSL doesn’t use the Linux kernel at all, it’s a Windows Subsystem for compatibility with Linux. WSL2 actually visualizes a complete Linux kernel, but the name stuck.
The original WSL DOES use the Linux kernel. Which runs as a native NT process (there’s a huge difference between NT and Win32 processes). But porting a Linux kernel into the NT binary is a maintenance nightmare, it’s much easier to run the original in a slim VM.
It’s a windows subsystem, and it runs linux.
Windows subsystem for (running) linux?
I guess the logic is that it’s a subsystem of Windows for the purpose of running Linux apps.
Agree though that it’s a confusing name. I remember thinking the same thing about Windows Subsystem for Android (the compatibility layer to run Android apps in Windows)
Yeah the naming is absurdly stupid. Its a linux subsystem that is part of windows nowadays. Its so people on windows can get access to a proper terminal interface.
Windows has a terminal interface already!
[Windows subsystem] for [executable environment] is the naming scheme. The default is Win32, there’s one for POSIX (practically never used), and Linux runs in another.
How was it not open source before? Isn’t linux gpl?
You are confusing the software and Linux kernel that make up WSL2 because the former was proprietary until now and the latter has always been available on GitHub.
Kernel used in WSL2
That’s news to me. Thanks for the info
