Well, is it enough? Voting is good, but is it enough to defeat fascism? It wasn’t enough in the USA. It would be wonderful if voting was enough everywhere, but fascists don’t just accept the results of an election and give up their dreams of ruling over you.
Yes it is ironic. But even if ppl voted and we got the democrats. There’s still lots to do. The dems are still neoliberals who prioritise the wealth of the few over the lives of the many. They are just a little more moderated than the republicans at that.
So if you vote Dem and think “I’ve done all I can” you’re also part of the problem. Lasting serious change requires radical collective action. Voting isn’t enough. It’s just a tiny thing you should do aswell. The bulk of the effort stands outside it.
Voting is not how we get liberation. It’s how we occasionally slow down the machine that crushes people.
(Obligatory Fuck Hexbear for their support of Imperialist and Genocidal Regimes)
So if you vote Dem and think “I’ve done all I can” you’re also part of the problem. Lasting serious change requires radical collective action. Voting isn’t enough. It’s just a tiny thing you should do aswell. The bulk of the effort stands outside it.
Absolutely. It’s just a bare minimum for anyone serious about positive change.
Voter turnout has been relatively high in the past few elections. You could argue that the baseline was extremely low, and I agree with you that there is a concerted effort to suppress and discourage voting. But voting is not enough, because our system has been structured and modified to limit our options.
It’s the “preheat oven” step to protecting freedom and democracy from tyrants. Like yes, do that, but don’t expect a soufflé to just spontaneously happen.
I think it is more of a failure of the democrats. Harris simply did not get enough traction compared to Trump. The Democrat party was simply complacent and underestimated the power of the Republican party. They kind of just assumed everyone was going to vote Democratic when in really Trump worked very hard to swing the swing voters. Winning a US election is hard and you can’t just it on your butt and assume people will vote for you. Harris came into the game way to late and didn’t have much of a plan. She could’ve made something up like Trump does but instead she associated herself with unfixed issues.
I think that’s hard to actually objectify. Ultimately free discussion should be encouraged as that’s the best way to put a stop to Authoritarianism. Authoritarianism is not right or left and can piggy back on both sides. Right now both sides are aren’t doing a great job of protecting democracy. The Democrats could be doing a lot more and the Republicans should speak up against Trump doing questionable things. Blind following and short term thinking are very bad for the future.
The more I read this comment the more irate I get.
It’s as if Liberals are only willing to uphold this (very sensible) standard when it’s their own political interests at stake, but have no interest or can’t be bothered to uphold it when it’s their own representatives who are refusing to oppose fascists.
Excusing a party who has far more agency in opposing fascism while having zero-tolerance for people who are themselves victims of a broken electoral system is fucking sociopathic.
Not a liberal, good try at attempting to remove responsibility from those abdicating their duty to humanity though. I excuse noone involved in enabling fascism.
A member of a right-wing neolib political party that cooperates with those actively working to install fascism and/or neo-feudalism and refuse to push back in any meaningful way? You’re partly responsible for the shit happening.
A member of a fascist/theocratic/neo-feudalist party? You’re directly responsible.
Non-voter due to apathy and/or ignorance and/or mis/disinformation? Forgiveable, if you put in some effort.
Non-voter/protest voter who refused to oppose fascism either for reasons of trying to boost one’s ego by being more “morally pure” or following the reprehensible religion that is accelerationism? Get fucked. You share responsibility and are no ally to vulnerable people of any sort.
Get fucked. You share responsibility and are no ally to vulnerable people of any sort.
Weird that you don’t have that energy to the people actively enacting and collaborating with fascism. Nowhere on your list have you identified the level of responsibility for who’s job it is to represent their voters, and who’s job it is to campaign and advocate for their platform and put forward their vision to address our national crisis.
Fascist movements don’t happen in a vacuum, and the same conditions that lead rise to nazi’s also lead to the disillusionment of voters who have lost hope that democracy is incapable of reform at all. People resort to fascism for the same reason (that democracy cannot be reformed through democratic means, so they resort to violence and authoritarianism).
Democrats hold the entire blame, not just for collaborating with fascists domestically and abroad, but for creating the despare that lead people to give up on democracy.
The fact that you’re ire points only in one direction leads me to think you share that same contemptible abdication of responsibility as liberals do.
Get fucked
A member of a right-wing neolib political party that cooperates with those actively working to install fascism and/or neo-feudalism and refuse to push back in any meaningful way? You’re partly responsible for the shit happening.
You forgot the people who actively petitioned their party to lay down their fascist collaboration and voted as a member of that party. Even if you’re one of those people as I am, the fact that you’re giving cover to the cowards who claim to represent you makes you a coward, too.
I misinterpreted your meaning, I think. Too used to people reading a dissenting view and brushing it off as “lib”. Sorry about that.
The fact that you’re ire points only in one direction leads me to think you share that same contemptible abdication of responsibility as liberals do.
I think it is more related to being neurodivergent and being multiple lists of people that RFK Jr publicly stated that he wanted to send to forced labor camps, as well being close to LGBTQ+ people. Choosing not to oppose these nazis, willfully, feels like betrayal. Betrayal hits differently than actions of known malignancies.
You forgot the people who actively petitioned their party to lay down their fascist collaboration and voted as a member of that party. Even if you’re one of those people as I am, the fact that you’re giving cover to the cowards who claim to represent you makes you a coward, too.
I did forget to mention them. Mainly because I think that those are the people who are acting ethically and actually trying to use the available tools instead of attempting to force armed conflict (likely inevitable at this point) or inflate their egos.
think it is more related to being neurodivergent and being multiple lists of people that RFK Jr publicly stated that he wanted to send to forced labor camps, as well being close to LGBTQ+ people.
Wait I think I said something about this
are only willing to uphold this (very sensible) standard when it’s their own political interests at stake, but have no interest or can’t be bothered to uphold it when it’s their own representatives who are refusing to oppose fascists.
See what I mean? It’s appropriate to be angry. Righteous, even. But pretending as if opposing fascism is only important when it personally effects you is childish. Democrats were actively assisting in a fucking genocide, and somehow you don’t seem very angry with them for that culpability, let alone for crippling their own opposition campaign by doing so. There might be lots of reasons why your imagined non-voters chose not to vote for Kamala, but the huge one is right there in the issue you’re angry about.
Yes, Trump is objectively worse, no question. But Democrats have been teaching voters for fucking decades that it doesn’t matter what they want, they will only do what’s politically expedient - it’s their fucking fault so many people have lost sight of the importance of exercising what little democratic power they actually have.
Betrayal hits differently than actions of known malignancies.
It’s a double standard to expect people to acknowledge that very reasonable feeling when millions of people have been feeling that way about the democrats for fucking decades. Yea, it sucks that you were abandoned, but how incredibly selfish of you to make that the problem of the other people who’ve been abandoned long before you ever were.
Mainly because I think that those are the people who are acting ethically and actually trying to use the available tools instead of attempting to force armed conflict (likely inevitable at this point) or inflate their egos
The start of a very mature sentiment, undercut by putting arbitrary guardrails around what you personally find to be ‘ethical’ and an imagined motivation.
But pretending as if opposing fascism is only important when it personally effects you is childish.
…
It’s a double standard to expect people to acknowledge that very reasonable feeling when millions of people have been feeling that way about the democrats for fucking decades.
You say that as if I have been politically engaged and working for positive change for decades.
Democrats were actively assisting in a fucking genocide, and somehow you don’t seem very angry with them for that culpability, let alone for crippling their own opposition campaign by doing so.
You’d be very much incorrect there. I’ve been pissed off about it and engaged, again, for decades. Dems have been supporting the genocide since before I was born. They were still, in reality, the only chance of ending it in any way that does not involve the end of the Palestinian people. They were also the only choice that was opposing fascism.
It seems that we actually agree on a lot though you seem to be operating under the assumption that I only became aware of this bullshit when my privilege stopped being as significant as it once was. That’s a pretty poor assumption to make and very much false. I’ve been engaged politically and in volunteering in my community to help those less fortunate in some manner, almost continually since I was 15 (with some gaps due to having been homeless and needing to see to my own survival or having been in a state of mental health crisis).
Now, I’m done engaging with this thread at this time. More important things to do than prove my leftist credentials or validity of my grievance against those who willfully refuse to oppose fascism when the situation is clearly spelled out for them with charts and illustrations, like watching my cat do laps up and down the hallway.
Well, is it enough? Voting is good, but is it enough to defeat fascism? It wasn’t enough in the USA. It would be wonderful if voting was enough everywhere, but fascists don’t just accept the results of an election and give up their dreams of ruling over you.
Perhaps ironically, because people didn’t vote. Anti-electoralists/accelerationists oppose reform and incremental change.
Yes it is ironic. But even if ppl voted and we got the democrats. There’s still lots to do. The dems are still neoliberals who prioritise the wealth of the few over the lives of the many. They are just a little more moderated than the republicans at that.
So if you vote Dem and think “I’ve done all I can” you’re also part of the problem. Lasting serious change requires radical collective action. Voting isn’t enough. It’s just a tiny thing you should do aswell. The bulk of the effort stands outside it.
Voting is not how we get liberation. It’s how we occasionally slow down the machine that crushes people.
(Obligatory Fuck Hexbear for their support of Imperialist and Genocidal Regimes)
Absolutely. It’s just a bare minimum for anyone serious about positive change.
Voter turnout has been relatively high in the past few elections. You could argue that the baseline was extremely low, and I agree with you that there is a concerted effort to suppress and discourage voting. But voting is not enough, because our system has been structured and modified to limit our options.
Voting is not enough but it is the minimum necessary.
It’s the “preheat oven” step to protecting freedom and democracy from tyrants. Like yes, do that, but don’t expect a soufflé to just spontaneously happen.
Very apt analogy.
The vast majority of people who don’t vote are not anti-electorialist, they are just apathetic/lazy
Correct. But The anti-electoralists are louder than the apathetic and discourage breaking out of that apathy.
I think it is more of a failure of the democrats. Harris simply did not get enough traction compared to Trump. The Democrat party was simply complacent and underestimated the power of the Republican party. They kind of just assumed everyone was going to vote Democratic when in really Trump worked very hard to swing the swing voters. Winning a US election is hard and you can’t just it on your butt and assume people will vote for you. Harris came into the game way to late and didn’t have much of a plan. She could’ve made something up like Trump does but instead she associated herself with unfixed issues.
Don’t care. Opposing nazis is a basic duty that all humans have. Refusing to do so is betrayal.
I think that’s hard to actually objectify. Ultimately free discussion should be encouraged as that’s the best way to put a stop to Authoritarianism. Authoritarianism is not right or left and can piggy back on both sides. Right now both sides are aren’t doing a great job of protecting democracy. The Democrats could be doing a lot more and the Republicans should speak up against Trump doing questionable things. Blind following and short term thinking are very bad for the future.
The more I read this comment the more irate I get.
It’s as if Liberals are only willing to uphold this (very sensible) standard when it’s their own political interests at stake, but have no interest or can’t be bothered to uphold it when it’s their own representatives who are refusing to oppose fascists.
Excusing a party who has far more agency in opposing fascism while having zero-tolerance for people who are themselves victims of a broken electoral system is fucking sociopathic.
Not a liberal, good try at attempting to remove responsibility from those abdicating their duty to humanity though. I excuse noone involved in enabling fascism.
A member of a right-wing neolib political party that cooperates with those actively working to install fascism and/or neo-feudalism and refuse to push back in any meaningful way? You’re partly responsible for the shit happening.
A member of a fascist/theocratic/neo-feudalist party? You’re directly responsible.
Non-voter due to apathy and/or ignorance and/or mis/disinformation? Forgiveable, if you put in some effort.
Non-voter/protest voter who refused to oppose fascism either for reasons of trying to boost one’s ego by being more “morally pure” or following the reprehensible religion that is accelerationism? Get fucked. You share responsibility and are no ally to vulnerable people of any sort.
Didn’t say that you were.
Weird that you don’t have that energy to the people actively enacting and collaborating with fascism. Nowhere on your list have you identified the level of responsibility for who’s job it is to represent their voters, and who’s job it is to campaign and advocate for their platform and put forward their vision to address our national crisis.
Fascist movements don’t happen in a vacuum, and the same conditions that lead rise to nazi’s also lead to the disillusionment of voters who have lost hope that democracy is incapable of reform at all. People resort to fascism for the same reason (that democracy cannot be reformed through democratic means, so they resort to violence and authoritarianism).
Democrats hold the entire blame, not just for collaborating with fascists domestically and abroad, but for creating the despare that lead people to give up on democracy.
The fact that you’re ire points only in one direction leads me to think you share that same contemptible abdication of responsibility as liberals do.
You forgot the people who actively petitioned their party to lay down their fascist collaboration and voted as a member of that party. Even if you’re one of those people as I am, the fact that you’re giving cover to the cowards who claim to represent you makes you a coward, too.
Get fucked (that one was directed at you).
I misinterpreted your meaning, I think. Too used to people reading a dissenting view and brushing it off as “lib”. Sorry about that.
I think it is more related to being neurodivergent and being multiple lists of people that RFK Jr publicly stated that he wanted to send to forced labor camps, as well being close to LGBTQ+ people. Choosing not to oppose these nazis, willfully, feels like betrayal. Betrayal hits differently than actions of known malignancies.
I did forget to mention them. Mainly because I think that those are the people who are acting ethically and actually trying to use the available tools instead of attempting to force armed conflict (likely inevitable at this point) or inflate their egos.
<3
Wait I think I said something about this
See what I mean? It’s appropriate to be angry. Righteous, even. But pretending as if opposing fascism is only important when it personally effects you is childish. Democrats were actively assisting in a fucking genocide, and somehow you don’t seem very angry with them for that culpability, let alone for crippling their own opposition campaign by doing so. There might be lots of reasons why your imagined non-voters chose not to vote for Kamala, but the huge one is right there in the issue you’re angry about.
Yes, Trump is objectively worse, no question. But Democrats have been teaching voters for fucking decades that it doesn’t matter what they want, they will only do what’s politically expedient - it’s their fucking fault so many people have lost sight of the importance of exercising what little democratic power they actually have.
It’s a double standard to expect people to acknowledge that very reasonable feeling when millions of people have been feeling that way about the democrats for fucking decades. Yea, it sucks that you were abandoned, but how incredibly selfish of you to make that the problem of the other people who’ve been abandoned long before you ever were.
The start of a very mature sentiment, undercut by putting arbitrary guardrails around what you personally find to be ‘ethical’ and an imagined motivation.
You say that as if I have been politically engaged and working for positive change for decades.
You’d be very much incorrect there. I’ve been pissed off about it and engaged, again, for decades. Dems have been supporting the genocide since before I was born. They were still, in reality, the only chance of ending it in any way that does not involve the end of the Palestinian people. They were also the only choice that was opposing fascism.
It seems that we actually agree on a lot though you seem to be operating under the assumption that I only became aware of this bullshit when my privilege stopped being as significant as it once was. That’s a pretty poor assumption to make and very much false. I’ve been engaged politically and in volunteering in my community to help those less fortunate in some manner, almost continually since I was 15 (with some gaps due to having been homeless and needing to see to my own survival or having been in a state of mental health crisis).
Now, I’m done engaging with this thread at this time. More important things to do than prove my leftist credentials or validity of my grievance against those who willfully refuse to oppose fascism when the situation is clearly spelled out for them with charts and illustrations, like watching my cat do laps up and down the hallway.