Time to get Hari Seldon and prepare a foundation.
Which is a great analogy cause Hari fully lived and died in the collapsing empire. His life never improved due to faster collapse.
" It takes a strong effort on the part of each American Indian not to become Europeanized. The strength for this effort can only come from the traditional ways, the traditional values that our elders retain. It must come from the hoop, the four directions, the relations: it cannot come from the pages of a book or a thousand books. No European can ever teach a Lakota to be Lakota, a Hopi to be Hopi. A master’s degree in “Indian Studies” or in “education” or in anything else cannot make a person into a human being or provide knowledge into the traditional ways. It can only make you into a mental European, an outsider.
I should be clear about something here, because there seems to be some confusion about it. When I speak of Europeans or mental Europeans, I’m not allowing for false distinctions. I’m not saying that on the one hand there are the by-products of a few thousand years of genocidal, reactionary European intellectual development which is bad; and on the other hand there is some new revolutionary intellectual development which is good. I’m referring here to the so-called theories of Marxism and anarchism and “leftism” in general. I don’t believe these theories can be separated from the rest of the European intellectual tradition. It’s really just the same old song.
The process began much earlier. Newton, for example, “revolutionized” physics and the so-called natural science by reducing the physical universe to a linear mathematical equation.
Descartes did the same thing with culture. John Locke did it with politics, and Adam Smith did it with economics. Each one of these “thinkers” took a piece of the spirituality of human existence and converted it into a code, an abstraction. They picked up where Christianity ended: they “secularized” Christian religion, as the “scholars” like to say — and in doing so they made Europe more able and ready to act as an expansionist culture. Each of these intellectual revolutions served to abstract the European mentality even further, to remove the wonderful complexity and spirituality from the universe and replace it with a logical sequence: one, two, three. Answer!.
This is what has come to be termed “efficiency” in the European mind. Whatever is mechanical is perfect; whatever seems to work at the moment — that is, proves the mechanical model to be the right one — is considered correct, even when it is clearly untrue. This is why “truth” changes so fast in the European mind; the answers which result from such a process are only stopgaps, only temporary, and must be continuously discarded in favor of new stopgaps which support the mechanical models and keep them (the models) alive.
Hegel and Marx were heirs to the thinking of Newton, Descartes, Locke and Smith. Hegel finished the process of secularizing theology — and that is put in his own terms — he secularized the religious thinking through which Europe understood the universe. Then Marx put Hegel’s philosophy in terms of “materialism,” which is to say that Marx despiritualized Hegel’s work altogether. Again, this is in Marx’ own terms. And this is now seen as the future revolutionary potential of Europe. Europeans may see this as revolutionary, But American Indians see it simply as still more of that same old European conflict between being and gaining. The intellectual roots of a new Marxist form of European imperialism lie in Marx’ — and his followers’ — links to the tradition of Newton, Hegel, and the others.
Being is a spiritual proposition. Gaining is a material act. Traditionally, American Indians have always attempted to be the best people they could. Part of that spiritual process was and is to give away wealth, to discard wealth in order not to gain. Material gain is an indicator of false status among traditional people, while it is “proof that the system works” to Europeans. Clearly, there are two completely opposing views at issue here, and Marxism is very far over to the other side from the American Indian view. But lets look at a major implication of this; it is not merely an intellectual debate.
The European materialist tradition of despiritualizing the universe is very similar to the mental process which goes into dehumanizing another person. And who seems most expert at dehumanizing other people? And why? Soldiers who have seen a lot of combat learn to do this to the enemy before going back into combat. Murderers do it before going out to commit murder. Nazi SS guards did it to concentration camp inmates. Cops do it. Corporation leaders do it to the workers they send into uranium mines and steel mills. Politicians do it to everyone in sight. And what the process has in common for each group doing the dehumanizing is that it makes it all right to kill and otherwise destroy other people. One of the Christian commandments says, “Thou shalt not kill,” at least not humans, so the trick is to mentally convert the victims into nonhumans. Then you can proclaim violation of your own commandment as a virtue.
In terms of the despiritualization of the universe, the mental process works so that it become virtuous to destroy the planet. Terms like progress and development are used as cover words here, the way victory and freedom are used to justify butchery in the dehumanization process. For example, a real-estate speculator may refer to “developing” a parcel of ground by opening a gravel quarry; development here means total, permanent destruction, with the earth itself removed. But European logic has gained a few tons of gravel with which more land can be “developed” through the construction of road beds. Ultimately, the whole universe is open — in the European view — to this sort of insanity.
Most important here, perhaps, is the fact that Europeans feel no sense of loss in this. After all, their philosophers have despiritualized reality, so there is no satisfaction (for them) to be gained in simply observing the wonder of a mountain or a lake or a people in being. No, satisfaction is measured in terms of gaining material. So the mountain becomes gravel, and the lake becomes coolant for a factory, and the people are rounded up for processing through the indoctrination mills Europeans like to call schools.
But each new piece of that “progress” ups the ante out in the real world. Take fuel for the industrial machine as an example. Little more than two centuries ago, nearly everyone used wood — a replenishable, natural item — as fuel for the very human needs of cooking and staying warm. Along came the Industrial Revolution and coal became the dominant fuel, as production became the social imperative for Europe. Pollution began to become a problem in the cities, and the earth was ripped open to provide coal whereas wood had simply been gathered or harvested at no great expense to the environment. Later, oil became the major fuel, as the technology of production was perfected through a series of scientific “revolutions.” Pollution increased dramatically, and nobody yet knows what the environmental costs of pumping all that oil out of the ground will really be in the long run. Now there’s an “energy crisis,” and uranium is becoming the dominant fuel.
Capitalists, at least, can be relied upon to develop uranium as fuel only at the rate at which they can show a good profit. That’s their ethic, and maybe that will buy some time. Marxists, on the other hand, can be relied upon to develop uranium fuel as rapidly as possible simply because it’s the most “efficient” production fuel available. That’s their ethic, and I fail to see where it’s preferable. Like I said, Marxism is right smack in the middle of the European tradition. It’s the same old song."
- Russel Means of the Lakota people (full speech)
Anarchists (lib left) aren’t typically waiting for society to collapse. We typically focus on building the world we want to see now in order to make the collapsing society unnecessary to provide out material needs. You know, the whole mutual aide and community organizing bit.
Good luck creating a social contract based on vibes only.
Is that what you think mutual aid is?
Feel free to give your own take.
I don’t know what that means, but I don’t think you do either.
“Mutual aid is an organizational model where voluntary, collaborative exchanges of resources and services for common benefit take place amongst community members to overcome social, economic, and political barriers to meeting common needs.”
Legal systems are far more effective at guiding human behavior than hoping for the voluntary good will of people’s hearts.
So your argument is that the only way to get people to live together is under the constant threat of violence from the state?
Not the guy you were talking to, but in my opinion, yes
I like the idea of anarchism, but I see it as more of an ideal world view than an actual stable reality.
To support this, every group member of every group must almost unanimously support the concept. When resources or safety in an area become scarce, it’s easy for some groups to evolve back into another power structure to take care of their own people.
It’s really difficult for me to imagine everybody on this planet getting along with this. But I’m certainly interested in other viewpoints.
Honestly ALL systems are more of an ideal world than a stable reality. So singling out anarchism because it too is idealistic isn’t really much of an argument against it.
I’d rather live under a state with a secure monopoly on violence than in a stateless chaos of violence. Anarchy isn’t a form of government. It’s simply the period before a group uses violence to establish itself as the government.
Let me ask you, would you rather deal with a cop or a warlord?
You do not understand anarchism in the slightest. You are imagining some Hobbsian hellscape out of a disaster movie, which is completely counter to human nature.
This is the definition I am basing my perspective on.
“the organization of society on the basis of voluntary cooperation, without political institutions or hierarchical government; anarchism.”
Also human nature has created plenty of hellscapes in the past. Don’t think it can’t happen again.
There’s the term “anarchy” describing a state of chaos, and there’s the philosophical political term anarchism, which is completely separate.
You’re assuming the chaos is what anarchist philosophers want, which is incorrect.
Authority would be handled democratically or rotationally in an anarchist society. As an example, the police could be voted into place at a meeting that occurs every saturday where anyone who wants can attend to decide what the people in a given region do.
Chaos is a byproduct of human nature. Central authority and law is meant to kept that chaos in check.
Given your example, what would happen if two groups in the same town both elected their own police force with wildly different directives?
What happens when you give those cops the means to enforce their directives and they decide to enact their own rules?
How would you even get them to do their job without a centrally backed currency?
There are accelerationists in every political sphere
On that note, Authoitarian right are not waiting either. They are actively taking power over and from others.
I’m really glad I’m in the lower left because that’s my favorite of the faces.
It’s from all that soy milk
“Why is 99% of the population such smooth brained extremists?” ; said Nero as he kept on fiddling and turning up the heat
Think of poor lil, Nero he just wants to play his fiddle in peace.
Eh it’s mainly the upper end of the square that thinks like this.
When people are desperate they turn to a strongman. Every. Time.
political compass memesI suspect that it’s a mental error to imagine that there’s one ideal ideology to start with.
For example, I think the founding fathers of America envisioned that the federal government would be smaller than the state governments. It’s not completely insane to imagine supporting true libertarians for a federal government and a progressive left wing party for a state government.
But people aren’t that mentally flexible. If they vote right wing for federal government, they will never vote left wing for state government. And so, despite the fact that capitalism can solve certain problems quite efficiently, the fact that it’s utterly unsuited to solve our most common problems like making sure people have basic essentials means that libertarianism is a bit of a dead end, unless people can actually learn to think flexibly.
This is one of the basic reasons why Political Compass Memes is such a bad idea. It encourages people to lock in their political identity, rather than remain flexible, and centrism isn’t the answer, either. We should be trying to use the right tool for the right job.
Prior to the trump era I voted libertarian federal, dem/left for state govt for this reason. The problem with parties at the moment is there’s not just economic policy tied up into them but cultural and societal aspects that have to be weighed.
This is one of the basic reasons why Political Compass Memes is such a bad idea.
No kidding. Not only do people fall on different parts of that two dimensional map depending on context (e.g. different positions on how much government support there should be for the arts versus for the sciences, how much government should regulate guns versus automobiles, etc.), but elevating these two axes above all the other unseen dimensions (ideological purity versus pragmatic compromise or versus consensus seeking, at what point process should yield to substance, the extent to which our institutions should have inertia that resists change, etc.), which causes people to oversimplify political issues into just those two dimensions.
There are many dimensions, and each problem may call for a different solution that would fall into a different place in any given dimension than the solution to another problem.
What’s up with this centrist nonsense? It’s a good thing to want to change the existing power structures actually.
Such things are possible without the collapse of society.
Ok but we’ve only been successful at collapsing society so far, not in the reform department
Not if it means creating a hellscape and rolling the dice hoping it works out as you let a fascist win an election.
I only see mockery of accelerationists, which I broadly support. Its 10 times easier to reform an existing government that to destroy and build a good one from scratch.
To be fair, the only reason I sound like an accelerationist, is because the building is clearly on fire right now and I’m presuming its structural at this point. So yeah, while I wish it didn’t get to this point, it feels likely that we will have to rebuild things from the ground up.
life hack: begin building new social structures before the current ones collapse
Accelerationists HATE him for this one weird trick, click to read more
You sound like an accelerationist because you think things are unsalvageable? Go figure.
Not when the existing government is built to concentrate and protect current property relations. Sure have parallel structures built to replace what exists but don’t reform, revolt.
This isn’t happening
Accelerationism is happening towards fascism. This would be a different story if socialism was on the rise with parallel structures in place to rescue us during the collapse
Literally this is not happening nor will happen. Not even close, it blows my mind other leftists think fascism provides opportunity. “Things are going to be great after this is all said and done!” As we’re rounded up and deported to El Salvador
The way to fight fascism is by attacking the system that holds it up not recreating its parent.
Difficulty of reform aside, the pain and suffering that will come from societal collapse will be immense. The chance of successfully building a better system out of the crumbled remains is low. I don’t think it’s a great aspiration.
some will die, that is a sacrifice.
Good people dying is bad, always! Even if it’s worth it in the end, we should try to find a way to save lives instead!
Good people are dying now though. When is the cost of drastic change worth the cost of the status quo?
the way to save lives is to change the society that harms billions not prop it up because you lack the imagination to think of something better.
I agree that society is currently immensely flawed and should be changed, I just want minimal deaths on the way. If we can save lives, we should! Some deaths are necessary for change though.
Thank you for your wisdom, Lord Farquaad.
You first
but where are the parallel structures
immediately attacked by the ruling elite when it starts to form
It’s literally not built to do that. The government has been hijacked by private interests.
What? Goverment has always existed to protect property rights of the ruling class that’s basic. Anything else it does that appear to do anything else are either really about their real goal or hard fought bargains meant to prevent rebellion that always are viewed as temporary,
Goverment has always existed to protect property rights of the ruling class
Edgy teenager take.
Modern western governments were created with the intent of replacing the old ruling classes with a democratically elected government. Pay attention during history class.
I study actual history and read actual history books that critically examine history through various lens from Marxist, de-colonial and other authors and that does not line up with the middle school propaganda you were feed sorry. Democracy at least at first for only property owning white men because the merchants and rich capitalists got rich and powerful enough that the aristocracy was an enemy of theirs and no longer useful to hold real power. These voting rights slowly expanded in order to placate rebellious populations or gain supporters when necessary first all white men, then women on and on while never forgetting and always co-opting “democracy” to maintain their power.
actual history
Lol
While I agree in theory, it assumes the existing system has rational or somewhat rational actors.
If your system is full of counter productive individuals, it might be easier to start fresh.
This works better with groups and companies, entire countries, not so much.
Personally im a Anarcho-Syndicalist so imo the system can slowly change from within. But only by slow economic sabotage, general strikes, and eventually taking over the economy.
anarchy-syndicalist have always supported revolution and the complete overthrown of hierarchies its never been about slow incremental change within existing power structures.
Ok that was just poorly worded, what I meant to say is that theres no point in burning it all down without a plan. The seeds of revolution are planted before it begins.
Everyone who thinks this seems to forget that they have to live through the collapse of civilization. It’s not gonna be pleasant.
No spoilers, I know, but have you watched the news recently?
No, I know. Like I said, it’s not going to be pleasant.
It’s already not pleasant, but it’s going to not be, too.
So let’s make the best out of it, don’t you think?
How?
Building mutual aid networks for the anarcho communist revolution of cause
What are the core tenants of Anarcho-Communism from your perspective? From my understanding, it doesn’t seem like a system that addresses human greed properly.
It does by actively discouraging it just like capitalism discourages empathy
Hugs?
Accelerationists aren’t exactly deep thinkers who understand entropy.
Thanks for speaking on our behalf, but I think most accelerationists know a societal collapse has consequences. We’re just OK with suffering for 50 years so that future generations can prosper
Always atart with yourself first.
In the same vein, I appreciate your making that decision on behalf of me, my wife, and kids.
Nah, you’re just a fucking idiot.
You presented no signs of deep. You’re relying on logical fallacies like Survivorship bias, where you assume society will re-emerge. There is no logical reason that would force societal collapse to follow previous patterns.
You’re okay with 50 years of widespread suffering to maybe have any society. But not okay with paying increased monthly taxes to guarantee a stable society.
The Greek were right, democracy doesn’t work.
Democracy only works with an informed electorate.
Who said I’m against increased taxes, wut
Ofc liberals can win any argument when they get to make up what the opposing side thinks
Taxes need a functioning society so a government can function to collect them.
You’re okay with more taxes, but you’re an accelerationist…
What does accelerationism mean to you? And what benefits do you believe society gains from this?
P.S. For the sake of transparency, I’m not liberal; but you can call me whatever you like.
P.S. For the sake of transparency, I’m not liberal; but you can call me whatever you like.
I’ve said this before to one of these types and then they started calling me a nazi. They’re unhinged evil morons.
FYI, there are accelerationists on both sides. The ones on the left are just unwitting allies of those on the right because their ideology is founded upon the belief that, contrary to all historical data, pushing society to a more miserable place will magically result in widespread class consciousness and a workers’ revolution.
This is something that has never happened in any major way in recorded human history and never because of intentional suffering. Generally, the historical results have been genocide and/or centuries of oppression.
I’ve noticed that many of these cruel and reactionary ideologies are not based in any historical data nor science. This is used to be called hysteria.
They still haven’t answered either; so I can only assume they did not realize the contradiction between accelerationism and paying more taxes. Sad times we live in.
Democracy does work, but it needs to be maintained.
We’re just OK with suffering for 50 years so that future generations can prosper
Correction: You’re OK with inflicting widespread suffering and death, especially on the most vulnerable, for the faith-based belief that, contrary to historical evidence, it will result in a society more aligned with your ideological utopia.
suffering for 50 years
In Europe, feudalism lasted 600 years last time, and only ended because a plague loosened up the nobility’s power over peasants. Vestiges of that old system endured in some parts of Europe for another 200 years after that, too.
In some neofeudalist future, where the lords and nobles have access to incredibly invasive technology for monitoring the thoughts and actions of all people, for controlling even more links in the chain of the production of food or tools or weapons, that power structure may turn out to be even more entrenched than the last time around. It’s not far fetched to say that the next time strictly inherited class comes around, it becomes a permanent feature of all societies that follow.
To add, the Junkers in Germany were the party of the old aristocrats. The last Junker to do anything of note was Von Hindenburg, who gave Hitler the chancellorship. Been completely irrelevant on both ends of Germany ever since.
Ahh, the ‘hooray for me and to hell with everyone else!’ mentality. Always the sign of a stable, sensible person.
Why did you think there’s a “hooray for me” here?
Because you think you’ll ’endure the pain’ and then get to ‘build a better system’.
But better odds are you’ll just die early on, and the system you dream of will never come to pass. You have gambling brain. ‘We’ll totally win next time! Just got to start over one more time!’
It’s just so stupid.
It reminds me too much of these moments in RTS games, or Sim City, that time you got hit hard and you have to rebuild, but don’t have resources to build, but to get more resources you need to build infrastructure. It can take so long to get out of that rut, and that’s of you don’t get hit by another calamity.
Sometimes I think any policy maker should play a game of old school Sim City 2000 and we can all see how they do before we vote for them.
The problem is realism. Sim City would teach you that a village of 150 people will absolutely grow into a thriving city because that’s the simple premise of the game - it’s a citybuilder - but that’s not how real life works. They could play increasingly more complex simulation games like Democracy 3, and it would still fail to be a realistic look at the complexities of modern society.
I’d also argue the opposite lesson is usually learned from games, because most gamers don’t play on “hardcore” mode - and those that do play hardcore can still always reroll or /ff to start another game or even just touch grass and stop playing the game. Playing God doesn’t reinforce empathy.
Good policy needs to balance a clinical approach against empathetic concerns. My advice to policy makers would be reading books like “Cities and the Wealth of Nations” by Jane Jacobs and learning from modern experts and non-profit advocates like Strong Towns. They should be looking to peers for success stories to emulate and for failures to avoid.
Yeah, Sim City is not that realistic, but what some politicians belt out is so wrong they wouldn´t even get them out of a city builder start area.
People don’t understand that a power vacuum attracts the power hungry that will do whatever it takes to get it.
Everyone is so used to consuming news not necessarily as entertainment but as background hum or as ammunition to confirm their ideology or dispel another. This isn’t wrong per se, but I think the consequence of constant barrage of war, disaster, tragedy, corporate abuse, political abuse at home and abroad desensitizes people to the possibility that these things can happen to them tomorrow right outside their front door.
They’re so used to the idea that theoretically the government has always been able to do whatever it wants to you they don’t realize how viscerally real it is that now they can do it without making excuses or cover ups, or under any pretense, and not only will no one do anything but millions will support the regime while you’re black bagged without due process. Authoritarian violence in America was always bad, but at least there had to be an excuse, a judicial system set up to defend cops who lie and say they felt threatened. Soon they will be brazen enough to snatch you up without pretense of a crime, without anyone knowing and without needing to explain themselves
They don’t realize how viscerally bad it will be for them when war breaks out no matter which side of that war they are on. Accelerationists are fucking clowns and they are not prepared for the world they’ve been jerking off to.
Authoritarian violence in America was always bad, but at least there had to be an excuse, a judicial system set up to defend cops who lie and say they felt threatened.
Hah! No, it’s always been like that. Particularly against minorities.
Right, and they are tried in an unfair judicial system and sent to American prison. This is bad, but not sending people to El Salvador without trial to die levels of bad. These things aren’t equal and to imply it is is disingenuous
Right, and they are tried
I’m gonna stop you right there.
You think they had trials for the minorities they grabbed off the streets? Maybe in New England or California or something, but in Texas if you’re a Black man in 1952 and a cop decides he doesn’t like you, you are a dead man walking.
I think - and I mean no offense - you might be looking at things from a sheltered point of view. Many of the things you’re seeing now seem crazy because a) they stopped happening as much in the 90s and early 2000s, and b) it’s much more visible now it’s happening again.
If a house is 4 million dollars and you work as an uber driver or cashier you may have a different opinion. All this current world order has done is monetize everything with debt, a big wall of debt that bids up the price of inelastic goods, as the rich borrow as much as possible to write off their cheap debt using their inflated collateral while never liquidating a penny of their assets.
Then when their mansion burns down due to building in a risky area or the bank that lends all this debt overextends then the government bails them out, as peoples paychecks are inflated away and they are denied pay raises due to the bad economy.
But I’m one of these smooth brains.
If you want society to collapse then yes you are a smooth brain.
Things can always be worse. And they wont only get worse for you, so if you are ok dragging everyone down into hell with you, you aren’t just dumb, you are evil.
Youre increasing asset holders, mainly the rich, drastically while taking it from everyone else. Things are getting signifigantly worse as housing prices rise, birth rates fall, and populism inevitably increases.
We treat future promises of money, mainly debt, the same as we value existing money. Every loan is new money supply, which favors the rich who hold collateral, and who benefit the most from the cantillon effect. They also generally benefit the most from bailouts, which is just another symptom of loose money.
Are ride-hail drivers better off when cars become astronomically more expensive and rare, and are cashiers better off when stores are closing?
Revolution is for those who think they have nothing to lose - or think that they cannot lose. Someone with a “bad” job is ironically still much further from supporting widespread upheaval than a mansion-dweller who thinks they’re untouchable.