Asking after the privacy debacle and manifest. I’m not keeping up closely, but iirc Firefox is the browser recommended because of Ublock. After the privacy data issue I’ve noticed broken trust from Firefox users, recommendations in favor of switching browsers, and predictions saying Firefox is going downhill fast and that their forks won’t be maintained for much longer.
So I’m here asking the seasoned sailors’ thoughts, aye. Is this just a storm passing by or are you really considering jumping ship?
Yea sticking with firefox , but with arkenfox hardening… bugfixes are more important than fear of some wordings , at least for now. Vanadium in GOS on the phone.
It’s been pretty painless to switch to https://www.waterfox.net/ on desktop. There’s also a Waterfox app for Android.
I would recommend using tor browser, since there are major known honeypots like YIFY out there. I’ve also seen IIS/.NET errors during downtime on watchsomuch just like YIFY, which NO non-corporate entity (or corporate entity founded after 2010) is going to pay a premium for over Linux for, basically guaranteeing it is also a honeypot. Watch yourself out there.
Sorry what’s the issue with YIFY?
There are rumors that YTS.[whatever they are on now] is a honeypot, and I can confirm during outages I have seen IIS with ASP.NET 500 error pages. If you’re not familiar with web dev, this is the setup a Fortune 500 company would have in 2008, not how a modern server run by random piracy bros on the internet would. It’s clearly corporate bros overpaying a contractor to run the site if it’s on Windows stack, especially in 2025.
I am not a dev and most of that is beyond me. What does that mean to someone who uses their torrents?
I am staying with FF until Orion is useable on linux. They just started development
Nope. LibreWolf & Waterfox are top-tier, Zen and Mullvad Browsers aren’t bad at all
I will say as nice as Zen seems (I agree that it’s not bad), I don’t really like the whole “vertical tabs” shtick. I mean, I can see why some people would like that, but personally I never got into it. It just looks weird to me and I like seeing more of my tab names (weirdly enough that’s exactly what a lot of pro-vertical users claim is good about them lol).
Also, from a privacy standpoint, not a huge fan personally of the fact that unlike LibreWolf, Zen Browser doesn’t have ResistFingerprinting enabled by default (not sure if it’s even in there tbh).
i agree with wanting see more of tab title. for people who regularly keep 50+ tabs open, that is a pipe dream.
if tabs are so many that their iconized anyway, making the tab bar vertical and iconized isn’t much difference.
and if the bar would expand on hover (hopefully in near future), like in Brave (not sure if it’s a Chrome feature), then it can be wide enough to see plenty of title without reducing the webpage size most of the time.
You know, I’ve been trying Zen and although I still prefer horizontal to vertical, I can see I was actually somewhat wrong about what I said.
The sidebar is actually expandable (they don’t make that clear) and if you do expand it beyond its default, you can actually see more of each tab’s titles. It actually helps a lot if you have a shitload of tabs.
If you are like me however and typically try to have only a smaller number of tabs pinned (or consistently open), typically no more than like a third of your screen width at most, then there really is not much of a difference unless you’re already used to vertical over horizontal tab bars.
I’ve been trying to keep less tabs open.
it’s not easy while test-driving multiple search engines for every search lol
Oh I get it! It’s certainly not easy. Haha. I struggle with it myself, but I’ve noticed that my mental health improves the more uncluttered my external life is, and my browser is a part of the latter.
“A tidy room is a tidy mind” and all that… It’s not 100% accurate, but it’s got a ring of truth to it, I’ve found, at least for me.
Right? To me it’s the opposite of minimal.
Exactly!
well Firefox may enshittify, it’s still the best option imo, certainly better than chrome or anything chrome based. even better if you use a privacy focused fork like librewolf.
there are other options out there, you can look into qt browsers, those were the basis for webkit browsers. hopefully soon things like servo/verso become more useable.
Sucks they’re not close to as secure as chromium based browsers. Where’s my privacy and security first browser ☹️ Vandium is the only thing close to that. Can’t wait for desktop version.
What about the Mullvad browser?
Great for anonymity but has the same security baggage that gecko based browsers havem
Firefox is more private than chrome, chrome had more security updates, but Firefox is not far behind by any means.
Like I said, security is what I’m talking about. Brave browser, as much as I dislike the company is the best compromise when looking for both.
As @[email protected] said, default Firefox is still more private than Chrome. Also, if you want security (and more privacy) on top of that, you should look into LibreWolf. I’ve been using it for a few years now and it’s fantastic!
Just not what I’ve read from security engineers or other sources like GrapheneOS devs. A lot of the flaws on mobile also apply to desktop. Just turns out engineering man power is a huge deal for secure browsers.
What you read is true, and also total nonsense.
There is not too much point in discussing privacy and security without a threat model.
So once you put your threat model into focus, you can discuss how to mitigate those threats and pick the right browser for you.
Well, I’m talking about my use case which involves my own threat model. Regardless if it matches yours or not, it’s still a complain I can share about the current state of browsers.
I don’t know if it is due to some sort of baggage from using the Mozilla Sync service or what, but librewolf without Mozilla Sync is faster for use than Mozilla Firefox is for some reason.
I only swapped over a few days ago, but the speed up was big enough for it to be apparent to me.
I’ve never heard of qt browsers, or servo/verso. I’ll give it a look, seems like I have a few rabbitholes to explore
Servo is an experimental browser engine developed by Mozilla Research using Rust to enhance performance, safety, and parallel processing in modern web rendering. The project showcased features like a concurrent layout system and asynchronous JavaScript execution.
Around 2017, Mozilla shifted focus to other projects and laid off several developers, leading to the gradual abandonment of Servo. However, a dedicated community later formed the Servo 501©(3) nonprofit to continue developing Servo’s technology and ideas.
Verso is an experimental browser built on top of the Servo browser engine. Currently, both softwares are experimental and pre-alpha developer software at best.
IIRC some parts of that project were integrated into Firefox rendering engine. Was it layouting or something?
This included the Quantum project, when portions of Servo were incorporated into the Gecko engine of Firefox.
The UX of Librewolf sucks ass though. Want to change this setting? Well you can’t, too bad.
How the UX of librewolf is different from the UX of Firefox?
A lot of options are disabled for “privacy reasons”. There is no halfway approach. It’s all or nothing with their strict privacy settings.
For some, that’s perfect. For others, who want a more tailored privacy experience, it’s not a really great option.
It doesn’t suck, it’s just not intended for casual users, which is why I chuckle when I see it recommended. That and Mullvad browser. I’d pretty much just recommend TOR over those, if you’re really going for strict privacy.
For something that strikes a good balance, I use Zen.
I switched to https://librewolf.net/ on Desktop and https://gitlab.com/ironfox-oss/IronFox on Android.
Using this as an opportunity to promote the LibreWolf community on Lemmy: [email protected] as well as their new Mastodon account: @[email protected]
I’m not affiliated with them btw
I’ve been trying ironfox but it crashes when i tap “customize homepage”
have you experienced this?
Me too! I’m using graphene, are you?
yeah, on graphene.
hmm can’t find mention of a bug for this combination. barely even the two mentioned in the same webpage.
I’m also on GrapheneOS running IronFox and customizing the homepage works fine for me.
maybe it’s caused by graphene+ironfox+some other setting or other app
Iron fox was updated over night for me and now no more crashing.
Is Vanadium not as ideal compared to Ironfox? I’m new to GOS
If you use android, GOS or not, you are using chromium webview anyhow. So using a Firefox browser is just adding on. There is no way around that issue until a proper non chromium WebView is available (gecko is not). But before that happens we will more likely have decent linuxphones instead of android. Vanadium is way more secure than any other browser , only competition would be bromite, also chromium based. Firefox on mobile is light-years behind vanadium security wise, no excuse for not sandboxing. https://grapheneos.org/usage#web-browsing
According to the devs vanadium is preferred for security, something about Firefox not having comparable sand boxing (?). Not sure, they wrote in length about the reasoning but at a certain point my eyes started glazing over.
I’ve been using Firefox for a long time on desktop and mobile, so when I switched to graphene I just kept with it.
I may try to switch over to vanadium though seeing as I’m already in “switching” mode.
I just tried now for the first time and no it doesn’t crash when I press “customize homepage”.
Same, I’m done with Firefox / Mozilla…
Librewolf, Waterfox, Floorp seem like viable options.Let me add FireDragon, a Floorp fork with librewolf and other changes.
I still recommend it with a little asterisk:
Disable a bunch of shit in it or download a privacy focused fork of it (like Librewolf)
That asterisk is a problem though, having to go through and make it secure is an issue. What if you miss a setting? What if you misunderstand a setting? None of it is particularly upfront and easy. It doesn’t ask you when you first install it to set this stuff up, it encourages you to just get stuck in and start using it straight away.
It’s not too complicated for a nerd whose hobby is computers or someone who has studied computers, but for the layperson it’s too much.
That’s why Librewolf is so good. It’s secure by default, with all the settings toggled to privacy and you can ease that off if you wish, for convenience or whatever.
Firefox essentially can’t seem to decide if they want to be FOSS or capitalist, that’s an issue.
You’re talking about security, but really, none of the privacy questions are about technical security of the product.
“What if you miss a setting?” Then they’ll give you article recommendations or send your search query to the search engine you’re targeting in the first place. They’re really a long way from what you can call a security issue, or sharing personal data with random third parties or data brokers.
if they want to be FOSS or capitalist
I really don’t see any basis for this take. It’s not about picking one of two extremes, and the most extreme niches in those.
They create FOSS, and look for privacy respecting partnerships and investment so they can keep it going.
They added ToS because they’re integrating services, like their synced/backed up browser data and other respectful integration.
That’s all a long way from malice, or significant problematic behavior. And you still have more choice than on the other biggest alternatives.
I don’t think it is the best we could have, I would like it a bit different too, but the way you make it out to be is way overblown if not wrong.
And based on the behavior of other shitty applications and devices what if an update silently changes one of those settings back to a problematic state? If they aren’t there to begin with I don’t have to worry as much
To be fair Mozilla doesn’t have precedent for this behavior but they also didn’t have precedent for this whole nonsense that started this drama a month ago. Things change
The other fun part is when it updates and changes your privacy settings.
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The problem is not laziness, that’s what a nerd whose hobby is computers would do. The average person is not searching for videos to learn how to toggle the settings of their web browser, ffs. Firefox should be secure by default.
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Ah, I see, you’re a contrarian who just wants an argument. That’s not really my bag so this will be my last message.
Yes, the likelihood of the average person downloading Librewolf is slim. Using or not using Librewolf doesn’t make someone lazy. Not reading and toggling every setting in Firefox doesn’t make someone lazy either.
You’ve just explained that to make Firefox secure you need to watch some video of someone that you hope knows what they’re talking about. What if they miss something? What if they’re talking shit? I know, shocking, people lying on the internet, but it happens.
Firefox is a big name browser used by many people of varying backgrounds and technical ability. It should be secure by default. It is not. Librewolf I recommended to anyone reading this thread, which is probably someone tech savvy enough to try a different browser. But not all people are that tech savvy.
The root issue is Firefox not being secure by default. If there was no profit motive for Mozilla it likely would be.
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It’s mostly overblown. You can watch here or read here. The internet is overreacting again, but Mozilla has done fuck all to grasp why just yoinking understandable language and expecting people to understand legalese and draw lines to their Privacy Policy is making people upset or confused.
Imo, people jumping ship is justified, because a company that makes $37M just on investments should do better about being vocal and prescient champions of privacy. Even if their actual privacy policy is the same as it was a year ago, their failure to communicate with their supporters in a way they can understand should have consequences.
That’s my take too - it’s probably not a big deal but damn Mozilla, do better in the rollout of a change like that.
It may be overblown but I am seriously tired of the way Mozilla is being run. The CEO has a $7 million salary. Big red flags always appear each time they increase the salary also. May be a bit hyperbolic but that’s why I’m just using another fork after 20 years
They’re red flag, but even if their stayed purpose is correct at the moment, it sets the stage. All it takes now is a want to sell the data and there’s nothing to slow them down or tell us. Nothing to make them keep the setting to not share telemetry. A little baked in ai, some hooks to monitor …
Jumping ship to a fork is our only recourse. It’s that or ride it out and see if the gun is loaded.
Yup. I’ve been using Firefox for 16 years and I just switched to LibreWolf the other day.
I’ve been using Netscape/Firefox for almost 20+ years. Donated a good chunk of money.
I went to Waterfox
Yeah, and while I don’t have any technical qualms about the direction of Mozilla with regard to Firefox, I’m personally switching for peace of mind and because of the aforementioned inability to communicate well. I don’t like working with or supporting people that can’t just say what they mean. I mean, how hard would it have been to have a human-readable version for stupid people like me and have a legalese version for the lawyers?
Regardless, as people make decisions, they deserve to be informed. It would be stupid to decide to leave Firefox if all you knew was the uninformed outrage of the internet.
That’s fair. Personally I should have called it quits when they started including pocket in the browser, but better late than never.
Fuck Mozilla, is all I’ve got to say.
Links2 is obviously the best browser. #links2gang
But librewolf is pretty neat.
as well as disabling anti-freedom features like DRM
Do they just try to remove DRM from media as it comes down, or can you not watch any DRM media at all on it?
They disable it by default, because it requires the execution of proprietary code, but you can reenable it.
I’m skeptical about Ladybird, that’s why I have such high hopes for Servo
I doubt that would be the case for Ladybird if the devs keep being how they are.
Can we stop acting like he raised a Nazi salute or something? Denying a PR that only changes minor stuff like pronouns by a not known contributor is well within the rights of a maintainer. Just because he did not communicate it well doesn’t make him or the project transphob
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For real. People can’t stop sucking Metas dick, despite them facilitating actual genocides, eroding our society and using your socil life as a means of profit, but god forbid the maintainer of a project is not nice enough
Can you link to more info on this
It stems back to a PR from the SerenityOS project where someone changed a “he” to a “they” in the documentation and the PR was declined for “personal politics”
Here’s an article about it: https://hyperborea.org/reviews/software/ladybird-inclusivity/
It does leave out this response by Kling on Twitter:
The browser project dedicated to open web standards steered by a compromised non-profit or the browser project dedicated to undermining the traditional web browsing experience steered by the largest advertising company on Earth … Let me think …
It’s incredible unfunny to read people here on Lemmy (or in the Fediverse in general) talk about dropping Firefox for Chrome or a Chromium browser. it’s like complaining that your country is going wrong by voting Trump.
All those people leaving Mozilla, I can only assume only read headlines and not the actual articles because they’re just blowing a nothing burger out of proportion.
To be fair nobody asked Mozilla to serve a stupid and detached statement without contextualizing what they meant or try to achieve.
[Edit] it feels like they’re asking for the outrage. You can’t just drop assurances of not selling data without explaining if your crowd is privacy aware. You can’t take broad licenses from your users if you don’t explain for what they are for. Having plaintext comment next to the lawyer speak would have fixed all that and none of this had to be this shitty. [/Edit]
And this is why I assume no-one read the articles; because they did explain themselves.
I read them, still want to leave.
It also includes a nonexclusive, royalty-free, worldwide license for the purpose of doing as you request with the content you input in Firefox. This does not give Mozilla any ownership in that content.
It’s still in the current version of the TOS without a direct explanation which can be found anywhere close to it. This is plain bad from a communication stand point.
All that we’ve ever asked from Mozilla is three things:
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Focus on the performance of your browser so that it is not a hog.
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Upkeep privacy
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Keep it secure
Out of all of those things, Mozilla fails at all except maybe the last thing. We didn’t ask for AI implementation. We didn’t ask for Firefox accounts. We didn’t ask for whatever feature flavor of the month that Mozilla got a hair up their ass about that they just had to throw into the browser. We asked for simple things and Mozilla overshot them. How are any of these features meant to uphold the values once held by Mozilla?
If you want to talk about a nothing-burger, think of all of the reasons that Mozilla had danced around to excuse itself by throwing these things in. And the cherry on top was the Terms of Service. Truly, they are tone-deaf.
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I’ll put my vote in for LibreWolf. Happy to help anyone with a ‘i can’t get librewolf to…’ or ‘this site is broken on librewolf’, etc to help you tweak it.
But i keep both installed. Libre for my daily driver. FF if there’s a site that i absolutely need to be identifiable for.
I will gladly take you up on this, not sure if it’s possible: trying to get the Toonami Aftermath site to work on librewolf
Interesting. I’m surprised it works on any browser.
From what I can see, when www.toonamiaftermath.com loads, it gets a guest id from api.toonamiaftermath.com.
www.toonamiaftermath.com has a well configured SSL chain per https://www.scyscan.com/check-ssl/result/www.toonamiaftermath.com.
However, api.toonamiaftermath.com is missing an intermediary certificate authority per https://www.scyscan.com/check-ssl/result/api.toonamiaftermath.com. Note how there’s only 1 record in the chain at the bottom of the page. It should resolve all the way upto ISRG Root X1 or X2 per https://letsencrypt.org/certificates/
This is on the server admin to fix up.
If however, you like to live dangerously, you can force LibreWolf to ignore the error (Keep in mind, this is the browser saying “We can’t confirm that this server is who they say they are”).
In LibreWolf, open the dev tools panel. (Press F12) Click onto the Network tab. Then load https://www.toonamiaftermath.com/ In the Network panel, you should see one record in red for https://api.toonamiaftermath.com/ trying to load bundle.js with the error NS_ERROR_ blah blah SEC_ERROR_UNKNOWN_ISSUER. Double click that record and it’ll open a new tab showing you FF’s/LibreWolf’s “Warning: Potential Security Risk Ahead” page.
Click on Advanced, then “Accept the Risk and Continue”. You might see the service response, you might only see the screen flicker. In any case, reload https://www.toonamiaftermath.com/ and repeat for any subsequent errors. It should challenge for every subdomain/package.
Once done, the site should work for you. You might need to manually click play depending on your other browser settings.Good luck. You’ll need to occasionally re-accept the SSL errors. As mentioned, there’s a problem with the trust chain. The site owner likely hasn’t set it up correctly, and should be causing it to fail on all browsers. You might have a cached chain somewhere that’s allowing it to work on that particular browser.
Sir/Madam, you are doing the lord’s work.
Yeah that succinctly describes the jank experience I’ve had with it. First, just thank you for all of this. Second, it’s working today, woo! Very stoked about this, again tysm
