I for one am going through quite a culture shock. I always assumed the nature of FOSS software made it immune to be confined within the policies of nations; I guess if one day the government of USA starts to think that its a security concers for china to use and contribute to core opensource software created by its citizens or based in their boundaries, they might strongarm FOSS communities and projects to make their software exclude them in someway or worse declare GPL software a threat to national security.
@[email protected] Views on the idea, no. But it confirmed my opinion that the current socio-economic system is unfriendly to FLOSS
It changed my view on how true to their ideas some people are.
There was more drama? I didn’t even notice. They’re always doing drama.
It just shows how hypocritical and Western biased the community is. Are Israeli and US maintainers ever going to get kicked out of projects for their countries many crimes? No of course not, they would never apply their own standards to themselves, which defeats the point of them in the first place.
Open source means open source, I never assume anything else from open source projects.
Is this really Linux drama though? It seems more like political drama that ended up jizzing on Linux.
I mean, yeah, there’s been drama after the decision was made based on legal issues brought about by political drama, but this part of it isn’t, if you get the distinction.
The only real linux drama part, as far as I can see is the crappy way it was announced, which isn’t what most of the people involved in the drama after the fact are complaining about.
I dunno, I’m not complaining about the post here, just talking about the overall issue itself using the post as a jumping point.
Anyway, I guess what I’m getting at is that foss development can’t be immune from political fuckery (no matter how justified or unjustified it is). Everyone that’s going to be involved in development is going to live under some nation’s thumb, and is vulnerable to any legal ramifications of that nation. So there’s no way to prevent a project being strongarmed; all that’s possible is having enough people that can review the code do so, so that any fuckery that affects the project is known, so that everyone can decide what they want to do about it as individuals.
As long as individual people have the ability to use any foss software they want on their own devices, there’s a limit to how bad the fuckery can get. Tbh, I’m more worried about corporate fuckery in foss projects than governmental
Linux at this point is an absolutely critical part of the information infrastructure our world is built on. It’s not just a few nerds in basements cobbling together code. Safeguarding this infrastructure against bad actors is absolutely crucial for everybody’s safety. Unfortunately we’re going to see more of this kind of stuff in an increasingly polarised world.
Depending on industry, 60-80% of all servers, globally, are running on Linux. So yes, we are not going away.
Israelis are more known for putting backdoors wherever they can than Russians, for example.
Anyway, nation-states are not the only kind of group with malicious interest. Maybe a maintainer is a member of some mafia, I dunno. How are you going to know this?
Many things can be done with FreeBSD. Again, in our time it may get some popularity again not because of such events even, but because of their possibility and to avoid monoculture (in the context of backdoors too).
Same here. For now it’s only barring contributors which won’t harm actual users much, but that could change in the future with the precedent this is setting.
What’s the point of “FOSS” at that point if it’s not so different from corporate products, being similarly vulnerable to sanctions? I could see genuine free software being relegated to piracy communities if it goes that far.
FOSS gives people the option to take the original code and create their own version of it in case they don’t like what the original maintainers are doing. With closed source you would be stuck and would have to look for something new.
Yes. There is an extremely arbitrary distinction made between the USA and Russia. Both are known for injecting spyware.
Not to mention the elephant in the room by not banning another certain country actively committing war crimes.
All software should be safety checked. Where the maintainer is from should be irrelevant.
But the most weird aspect is the timing. Why now and not a few years ago?
China is somehow still okay?
China is too important a supplier to the West. Sanctions against them would lead to retaliatory sanctions against the West from China which would be economically devastating.
Obviously they are just as dangerous and as actively involved is espionage as the other world players, but they hold too many cards to risk escalation. The West is also too important to their economy to escalate beyond war games. At least - we all hope so.
All part of the current US/NATO approved Overtone Window, friend.
*Overton
Ha. Autocorrect strikes again! Fixed it and Thanks, for pointing it out.
There is an extremely arbitrary distinction made between the USA and Russia.
Your world view seems to be highly influenced by propaganda. It’s very easy to draw a distinction between these two countries. Let me start with an easy one:
Russia is a dictatorship, the US is a democracy.
Which one is killing us faster? I’m pretty sure it’s the USA. Nice that you get to live in a democracy I guess but that doesn’t mean a damn thing to someone living outside the USA and being exploited and abused by it.
I’m in Sweden. The idea that the US is somehow more of a danger to us than Russia is laughable.
Russia invading is a statistical risk. The USA (as the leading avatar of capital) exploiting, degrading, and destroying the commons we need to survive is an unavoidable certainty. Russia and Sweden are also doing those things, but on a significantly lesser scale.
Maybe you should read the IPCC reports?
That’s a lot of cover… I’ve learned so far that Russia is responsible for 4% of the world’s CO_2 emissions, and that emissions in Russia and Ukraine have decreased fastest of all countries since 1990. That the USA is responsible for 28% of all emissions that have accumulated since the Industrial revolution, and that Russia has emitted 11%. Is there something specific you would like me to learn about?
In large part, it’s simply a matter of scale and wealth concentration. If Canada was as large and wealthy as the USA, we’d probably all be cooked by now.
Climate change is not a risk to human survival. Please study the WG2 parts for the possible risks we’re facing depending on when and how much action we take.
You’re correct in that large parts of Russia don’t have indoor toilets and proper sanitation. Not sure that’s a positive.
Read about Operation Condor. Its actions, repercussions and number of deaths due to it, and continue to pretend the USA follows Democratic Values™. And this is just but one example.
They are just better at PR than most. You are walking proof of it.
A KGB spy and a CIA agent meet up in a bar for a friendly drink
“I have to admit, I’m always so impressed by Soviet propaganda. You really know how to get people worked up,” the CIA agent says.
“Thank you,” the KGB says. “We do our best but truly, it’s nothing compared to American propaganda. Your people believe everything your state media tells them.”
The CIA agent drops his drink in shock and disgust. “Thank you friend, but you must be confused… There’s no propaganda in America.”
US is a democracy
Lmfao
Modern Russia is a shitty liberal “democracy” just as incompetent as the US’s
No, it’s not. But the US is closer to it than some Americans think.
I see why some people block lenny.ml. Many there put everything through a high-standard threshold function.
high-standard
If these mods here actually had high standards they would be banning the shitlibs on this thread
America: we need military bases all over the world to surpress their population and steal their natural resources. This is why we must Israel grow to expand our foothold in the middle east even at the cost of a genocide. We also overthrow democracies to replace them with authoritarian dictators when convenient to us.
You: Democracy!
People don’t realize that the US founders explicitly modeled their new state on the Roman empire, with an expansionist minority ruling slaveocracy controlling the state. The debates on this in the federalist papers are very explicit, as is the way they structured its government. Hell even half the buildings in washington DC are modelled after roman architecture.
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You’re replying to someone from db0
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Lemmy.ml is not the only place that believes the US isn’t a democracy.
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The US is an oligarchy. It’s one of the things agreed by philosophers, including my teacher. The current controversy in the left surrounding the elections obviously proves this point.
- Oops. That’s… interesting.
- Maybe, but we at least get to select which oligarchs we prefer. In Russia, you select from Putin, Pootin, and Puteen.
I assume you’re happy with the oligarch you got now?
If you think the oligarchs in America are the people up for a vote, you’re completing misunderstanding what you’re being told right now.
The candidates up for a vote represent the different oligarchs at feud.
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Aaaaah hahahahaha i wish i could see your face while you were typing out this “lesson” omg. Sheeeeheehee i can’t, i can’t! were you proud of yourself when you hit reply, like “aw yeah gottem”?
well yeah, how does us being democracy change the fact that they basically did almost everything that Russia did
“basically”
You’ll be surprised if you actually challenge your convictions.
I did, and I found that the US does WORSE shit than Russia sometimes.
Russia ain’t good. Neither is the US. Get your head out of your ass.
Heard about what Russia has been doing in the occupied parts of Ukraine?
Heard about what the US did in Afghanistan? US soldiers raped a LOT of children before and after murdering their entire families.
America JUST exited a decades long war where the only results were death and destruction.
Tell me more about the US government requiring their soldiers to rape pre-teen girls then.
Or, you know, they really aren’t the same.
Are you sure you want to compare how many wars the US has waged compared to Russia and how many people they’ve murdered each?
The current Russian govt is not aligned with Soviet principles or ideology, right?
And the Stalin period saw the Soviets fighting and defeating the Nazis in WW2. Does the calculation of excess mortalities account for such effects too?
Nazi instigators punished, famine caused by the effect of war, infrastructure damage by the Nazis, deaths in Nazi occupied areas. These things don’t seem to be discussed much.Invasion of Vietnam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_in_the_Vietnam_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_invasion_of_Afghanistan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemalan_genocide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_assassination_attempts_on_Fidel_Castro
https://dessalines.github.io/essays/us_atrocities.html#sources--starting-pointshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_United_States
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese-American_internment_camps
And since the current Russia is seen as the extension of the Soviets:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_genocide_in_the_United_Stateshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_of_1876-1878
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_major_famines_in_India_during_British_rule
The commenter says as he repeats other propaganda.
The US is not and has never been a democracy. The US is an oligarchy.
Read The People’s History of the United States by Howard Zinn.
At best, it was for a while a Representative Democracy. Where people gave their vote to other people to vote for them.
The fact that most Americans think the US is not an oligarchy, today, is a testament to the power of the State and their corporate media to propagandized their own citizens. It is very rich for them to point to other country’s Oligarchies and somehow absolutely fail to see their own. Or worse, call it some weird type of conspiracy to call out or point out reality.
I mean, it is not like it is not obvious if one takes a step back or two and looks at it objectively.
Your world view seems to be highly influenced by propaganda. A country ruled by two identical genocidal capitalist parties isn’t a “democracy”; it’s a capitalist dictatorship.
Any party genuinely wanting to advance working class causes will not be allowed to come to power through it (they won’t be funded by the capitalist backers that fund/control the two ruling parties to begin with), and anyone in power that happens to hurt the country’s imperial prowess will be disposed of by the ruling parties, the way JFK was assassinated for wanting to abolish the CIA and reducing US troops in the Middle East.
No
It’s banning contributors but not contributions themselves. So there must be inconvenience but somewhat effective workarounds. That could be fun to see unfold.
Although why would anyone from Russia even consider helping a project which sees them as lesser
Yes. If FOSS projects bend the knee to shitty laws just because “they are the law”, then FOSS is free labor for corporations with no gains for the people.
The usual consequences to not following the law are not in your favor.
If your goal in contributing to FOSS is to go to prison, there are a lot better avenues to achieve that.
Law aren’t always right and governments don’t always do the best neither for the world nor for its citizens. Open source projects and corporations shouldn’t rely on any government, they shouldn’t do the biddings on governments — either “good” or “bad” — and act in people best interests.
Of course this is a pipe dream and what we got is more free work for companies with none the benefits
I don’t understand why you think “avoiding prison” equals free work for companies. The individuals contributing to open source are subject to the same laws we’re discussing in this thread, and are the ones that would actually be getting consequences.
No one exists without a government, and that’s not even a pipe dream, it’d be societal collapse.
Which corporation are you talking about here?
America™
Nearly every single corporation with an online presence uses free software from the foss community.
That’s the point of FOSS as copyleft, to use the law to protect “free and open” information. This allows bigger projects, because contributors don’t have to keep their heads down.
At the same time maybe this is a downside, not an upside. As the reason why it has all gotten so big and complex and corporate-influenced.
It really is. Relying on a government good will to protect people best interests may be the point of failure of FOSS. I hope not but I’m less and less optimistic about the future
Yes, bad actors can exist everywhere, it doesn’t really help anything but fragment the project and harm it, do we need multiple directed forks ? Fuck no it will be best if everyone can monitor and contribute, I kind of think of it as they do peer reviewing in research and shit, it’s always better when more people can view it, that will leave less room for biasing and frankly detect bad actors easily
I’m not concerned that they followed the best advice of their lawyers to respond to the legal and political challenges that currently exist.
I am concerned that hostile nation states (define those as you will) have made supply chain attacks (remember the xz Utils backdoor) so common that actions like this or worse are becoming necessary and that open source, globally contributed software could be at risk.
This does very little to protect against supply chain attacks.
Your example shows that too.
Increasing modularity and reducing complexity of software seem to be the right way to that end. Plan9, GNU Hurd, Minix3 are interesting in that context.
If you are having sensitive information stored using closed-source software/OS, you can stop reading right here. This is your biggest vulnerability and the best thing you can do is to switch to FOSS.
For those that have already switched:
It made me think about how to improve the resistance of large FOSS projects against state-sponsored attackers injecting backdoors.The best thing i came up with would be to have each contribution checked by a contributor of a rival state. So a Russian (or Chinese) contributor verifies a contribution by an American.
The verifying contributors would have to be chosen at random in a way that is not predeterminable by an attacker, otherwise a Chinese-state contributor will contribute harmless code until the next verifier will be a US-based Chinese spy. Then they will submit a backdoor and have it checked by an American citizen paid by China.
Also the random number generator has to be verifiable by outsiders, otherwise a spy in the Linux-Foundation can manipulate the outcome of choosing a favorable verifier for a backdoor.This can obviously only be done as long as there are lots of contributors from rivaling states. If the US decided that Linux can only allow contributors from USA/EU, then this model can not work and Linux would have to relocate into a more favorable state like Switzerland.
What one should keep in mind that even if the US would ban all foreign contributions and the foundation would not relocate, Linux would still be more secure than any closed source OS, as those foreigners can still look at the code and blow the whistle on bugs/backdoors. It would however be much more insecure than it is now, as the overhead for finding bugs/backdoors would be much larger.
