However I find myself being disagreed with quite often, mostly for not advocating or cheering violence, “by any means possible” change, or revolutionary tactics. It would seem that I’m not viewed as authentically holding my view unless I advocate extreme, violent, or radical action to accomplish it.
Those seem like two different things to me.
Edit: TO COMMUNISTS, ANARCHISTS, OR ANYONE ELSE CALLING FOR THE OVERTHROW OF SOCIETY
THIS OBVIOUSLY ISN’T MEANT FOR YOU.
You can be validly left without wanting revolution, as long as you’re ok with progress happening over the course of centuries (in a world that has about 25 years left before the majority of us are dead from man-made climate change).
Some leftists aren’t so interested in progress, as in making sure everyone is okay.
making sure everyone is okay.
Given the current state of the world, that would be progress.
I agree. What I should have said is that some leftists aren’t seeking progress per se, but rather to ensure everyone is okay, per se.
One variable can be a leading indicator of another, but it’s still a different thing to be optimizing for one or the other.
Here on the fediverse we may be getting targeted by outside actors who want nothing more than to foment violence in western democracies.
True leftists reject violence in all forms. It is coercion. It is evil. End of story.
The only time violence is justified 8a in self defense or the defense of others. Political change must be achieved through peaceful means if you want the result to have any chance of enduring.
Anyone on here advocating for violence deaerves to be labeled for what they are: part of the problem with the world today.
Here on the fediverse we may be getting targeted by outside actors who want nothing more than to foment violence in western democracies.
What is the origin of this statement? That people disagree with you, and therefore must be foreign agents? If you go back to the founding of Lemmy, the Marxists and Anarchists were here first. If anything, the influx of Liberals from Reddit can be considered “outside actors.”
True leftists reject violence in all forms. It is coercion. It is evil. End of story.
Are you genuienly saying that Karl Marx was not a “True Leftist?” Kropotkin? Goldman? Fred Hampton? Che? Dessalines?
The only time violence is justified 8a in self defense or the defense of others. Political change must be achieved through peaceful means if you want the result to have any chance of enduring.
Revolution is self-defense against failing and violent Capitalism. Leftists don’t support random acts of terror.
Additionally, Political Change has never been meaningfully achieved via peaceful means. Abolition of Slavery, the Civil Rights Movement, the overthrow of Tsarism in Russia and fascism in Cuba, all stemmed from violence or the implicit threat of violence.
Anyone on here advocating for violence deaerves to be labeled for what they are: part of the problem with the world today.
Do you believe Leftists here support violence for the sake of violence? No, it’s because there is no alternative.
Those “western countries” you’re referring to, are not democracies, its more accurate to call them capitalist dictatorships.
Capitalists stand above and control the political system, stack candidates to those who’ve proven themselves to be good little capitalists puppets, and own the organs of media and limit public discussion to pro-capitalist talking points.
True leftists reject violence in all forms. It is coercion. It is evil. End of story.
Anyone on here advocating for violence deaerves to be labeled for what they are: part of the problem with the world today.
There’s no need to “one-true-leftist” us here, especially since the major branches of leftism (Marxism and most branches of Anarchism), are all pretty much agreed that pacifism doesn’t work, and is a strategy promoted by capitalists and petit-bourgeois idealists to quell dissent. A ruling class has never given up their power or wealth without violence or the threat of violence. Good article on this:
Red Phoenix - Pacifism - How to do the enemy’s job for them. Youtube Audiobook
Is Dessalines the dude that made Jerboa, the Lemmy Client?
Hey OP. Please look up the “Stonewall riots”.
Directly fighting against the forces that are making & enforcing laws that can & will do harm is the right thing to do. If the people in power / enforcing unfair practices see they are unopposed, they will become stronger in their positions. Complacency allows imbalance.
Will I break windows for Gaza? No. I will not. Who will that help? Who am I fighting? That kind of thing is nonsense.
Will I fight police that are attacking students for protesting? YES. YES I WILL. Because if you fight back, they will understand that you will not allow yourself to be walked all over by unjust enforcement. They will think twice about attacking students next time, because they know people are willing to fight back. If they do not encounter opposition, they know they are safe to do whatever they want.
In short: once a bully realizes that you will hit back, they are less inclined to bully you. Even more so if you are backed up by more people who also hate the bully.
Good sane take, to my understanding
This is everyone’s take here.
I think it’s all about how it’s said. The simpler, the better. Phrasing is important, too.
O COMMUNISTS, ANARCHISTS, OR ANYONE ELSE CALLING FOR THE OVERTHROW OF SOCIETY
THIS OBVIOUSLY ISN’T MEANT FOR YOU.
lmao so liberals only then.
Yeah lol just validate my clearly very questionable view, you’re only allowed in this thread if you agree with me!
TO COMMUNISTS, ANARCHISTS, OR ANYONE ELSE CALLING FOR THE OVERTHROW OF SOCIETY
THIS OBVIOUSLY ISN’T MEANT FOR YOU.
It takes either a complete lack of self-awareness or a simply incredible amount of gall to ask a yes-no question and then tell all the people most likely to answer one way to zip it. You might as well have just written “la-la-la-la I can’t heaaaar yoooou”
You misunderstand me. It’s simply that it’s a GIVEN that those people would advocate violence. There isn’t any need for them to respond. Their position is known.
It’s like as if I asked if it’s okay to charge over 20% interest on a loan. And all the credit card executives and buy here pay here owners and loan sharks started saying YEAH OF COURSE IT IS!
I kind of already knew where they stood. It’s the same with you.
You’re asking leftists, the vast majority of which are Revolutionary. Only listening to a minority of Leftists for their opinion and ignoring the majority only gives you an incomplete and biased view.
We’re not advocating violence. Your premise is wrong.
But we know our adversaries commonly use violence, so we’re aware it exists, and we know we have to prepare for it.
Are colonialist governments not violent? How do you remove from office a government that commits violence against their people, en masse, to destroy their land with mining operations?
Concrete example: how would the Congolese vote the French out, when anyone organising peacefully against the French is assassinated?
The point is not violence. But it would be naive to ignore the violence of our adversaries.
The fact that you think communists advocate for violence for its own sake (because you think we’re all bloodthirsty or something), tells us you have no idea what communists views are.
This is an opportunity for you to learn from others, not close your ears because you’ve been inundated with a lifetime of anti-communist propaganda.
There isn’t any need for them to respond. Their position is known.
This entire thread is evidence to the fact that you do not have a clue what communists actually think, and yet you still have the arrogance to simply ignore everyone trying to talk to you. Just incredible lol.
Yep, I have no interest at all in living under a communist dictatorship. If see you’ve seen another kind of communism, please let me know what it is. I’d love to be informed about it.
Maybe a lot more violence needs to take place before it works right.
I’d love to be informed about it.
that is a blatant lie. this entire thread is a monument to your willful ignorance.
Yep, I have no interest at all in living under a communist dictatorship. If see you’ve seen another kind of communism, please let me know what it is. I’d love to be informed about it.
PRC, Cuba, USSR, Vietnam, etc. are good examples of societies that were organized along Communist lines, and came with drastic reductions in Poverty and drastic increases in life expectancy and freedom as opposed to previous conditions.
Maybe a lot more violence needs to take place before it works right.
What do you mean?
Yeah yeah, continue to spout your anti-communist propaganda. You already live in a dictatorship, you’re just to propagandized to realize it.
The only dictatorship we want is that of the proletariat, as opposed to the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie. That is, a true popular democracy.
Maybe listen to what other people have to say and go read communist theory before saying anything you don’t know about.
As it stands your position is not left in any stretch of the imagination.
You could try reading literally anything people have sent you (I personally recommended three different books earlier) or you could keep up with your ahistorical vibes based analysis. Up to you champ, just know that you look goofy as shit to everyone who has actually put in the effort to educate themselves.
If all those people disagree with you, what kinds of people do you imagine would say yes? Nancy Pelosi? Chelsea Clinton?
Well believe it or not, communists and anarchists are a fairly small minority of the group that would be “the left” if you call the other guys “the right.”
I expect it’s more than two people I could hear from…🙄
Anyway this post sort of answered the question. The violent talk is coming from socialists, communists, and anarchists here on Lemmy, which have a very unified voice and shout down opposition.
Although I’m sure if they had anything they had to actually run (like a country) they’d be an absolute horror show of fighting, arguing, and bloodbathing each other until they got to the point where the strongest survived and could impose their vision of utopia on the masses.
What? What other groups make up the left then? Do they wield political power? Have they ever gotten to wield political power? Because the only left that has ever gotten to wield political power and use it to liberate the working people from capitalist oppression are the ones who were willing to pick up a gun and fight.
Do you think the Left/Right divide is determined by the absolute median position, or is it determined by actual views, ie a general support for Socialism vs a general support for Capitalism?
Although I’m sure if they had anything they had to actually run (like a country) they’d be an absolute horror show of fighting, arguing, and bloodbathing each other until they got to the point where the strongest survived and could impose their vision of utopia on the masses.
Historically false for pretty much every AES country.
Although I’m sure if they had anything they had to actually run (like a country) they’d be an absolute horror show of fighting, arguing, and bloodbathing each other until they got to the point where the strongest survived and could impose their vision of utopia on the masses.
Meanwhile in the west AOC and Bernie groveled at the feet of the democratic party by endorsing Biden’s genocidal regime and all they got in return was Biden announcing a plan to cap rent increases at 5%, which can only go through if they win the next election… against a fascist candidate who is far ahead of Biden in almost every swing state.
See why we want revolution?
shout down opposition
This is a text forum, you can post or comment as much as you like. People chiming in with similar opinions =/= “shouting down opposition.”
Yes and no. The answer isn’t straightforward, so let’s unpack it. Primarily, the qualifier “validly” needs investigation.
What is “validity” when it comes to political positions? Is validity a measure of correctness? Is validity a measure of intention?
If validity is a measure of correctness, then yes, you must be revolutionary if you are a Marxist or Anarchist, the two dominant trains of Leftist thought. Fringe positions like Social Reformists exist, though they have never been successful in achieving anything that can be considered long term leftward progress.
If validity is a measure of intention, then no. Not every progressive-minded person has done thorough research into leftist history, theory, and practice. Progressives can have an idea of what end result they want, without yet putting in the work to understand how to get there.
In the body of your text, there are loaded statements. To be Revolutionary isn’t to “celebrate violence,” or believe “by any means necessary.” Revolutionaries do not oppose Reformism, but believe it a lost cause. For a US-centric example, Reformism would be possible if PSL, the Party for Socialism and Liberation, could win elections consistently, but they cannot because of the two-party duopoly, created by Capitalist investment.
By and large, whether someone is a Revolutionary or Reformist doesn’t come down to purity, but knowledge and positions.
I should have just stuck with Democrat, and gotten rid of the whole idea of leftist and liberal.
You can, if you want. If you generally agree with the DNC, labeling yourself a Democrat is a useful label to quickly get your views across. You wouldn’t be a Leftist, since the goals and views of the DNC are a maintaining of the Capitalist status quo, but you would be a Liberal, if you want a non-party label to use instead.
I do think familiarizing yourself with Leftist theory would help you make sense of where Leftists are coming from.
There’s no room for centrists on the internet. I seem to only find centrists in real life, face-to-face. I guess we aren’t loud but we’re here.
(Now here come the downvotes…)
Moralists don’t really have beliefs. Sometimes they stumble on one, like on a child’s toy left on the carpet. The toy must be put away immediately. And the child reprimanded. Centrism isn’t change – not even incremental change. It is control. Over yourself and the world. Exercise it. Look up at the sky, at the dark shapes of Coalition airships hanging there. Ask yourself: is there something sinister in moralism? And then answer: no. God is in his heaven. Everything is normal on Earth.
Why are you a centrist? If someone tells you waterfalls flow downward, and someone else tells you waterfalls flow upward, do you synthesize them into saying waterfalls remain perfectly still?
Where does centrism come from, and is it just arbitrary?
Lol!!! No, no, no!! My centrism is not arbitrary!! I don’t try to find a “middle ground” where waterfalls go both ways!!! Love the visual though!
I align with the political right on some issues, and the left with others. And in American politics I find the rhetoric & tribalism of both political parties ridiculous - so I can’t identify with either.
Generally I lean left of center, but I can’t go “full left” because I think the left has some blind spots. And liberals do this annoying thing where they seem to be always be falling all over themselves to prove how self-righteous & progressive they are, & they wind up alienating left-leaning people like me as a result.
I align with the political right on some issues, and the left with others.
What are some examples of these issues?
Are you referring to liberals as “the left?” I think we are talking about different things here.
Perhaps so. I’m in the US where lingo goes that “Democrats” & “Liberals” are “left”, " Republicans" & “Conservatives” are “right”.
Not sure how that translates globally, so apologies if it’s confusing…
That’s the Overton Window, a peak into a country’s local positions with respect to the median. Generally, however, leftism is associated with Socialism, ie Worker Ownership of the Means of Production, while rightism refers to Capitalism, ie individual ownership of the Means of Production.
With respect to this post, Revolutionary Leftists are entierely Socialists, whether they be Anarchists or Marxists, not Liberals.
On the global scale, you would be considered right-wing, as America in general is a far-right country.
Democrats=liberals and they aren’t “left”, they are only left of conservatives, and even then, only on social issues. Dems/libs are conservatives when it comes to fiscal/economic stuff. Which is why the true left has no representation in the US when it comes to the economy, and the 2 capitalist conservative parties will never allow them to have any.
What positions do you hold that make you consider yourself left of center?
Excellent question, but I’ll think about it on my own. I’ve had enough go rounds in this post
Political spectrum of Left-Center-Right is not only pointless but very much harmful.
You have some goals in common with other people but you disagree on the means of achieving them. That’s it. Doesn’t make any of the views less valid. It makes them opposed in some circumstances, which is different from “validity”
if you agree with the aims of revolutionaries (a more just society) but disagree with their methods (violent revolution) then you need to prove your method is at least as effective as theirs
thus far, no such evidence exists. all societal progress has come at the expense of bloodshed. perhaps you’ll be the one to change that, but i very sincerely doubt it.
so to answer your question, yes.
I make one “sort of” exception for Czechoslovakia. I regard it as the only time a country became socialist by voting on it, but they had to do a coup with the implicit threat of violence to enforce the new government. The communists won a plurality in 1946 and had a coalition government. Fearing that they’d lose power, they began stacking the cops and courts with ideological communists. This fear turned out to be true after the liberal parties kept doing sneaky tactics to undermine the socialists. So in 1948 the communists had a coup to consolidate power and ally with the USSR.
And I know this wasn’t “bloodless” or “civil” since this all happened in the shadow of WW2.
excellent historical context comrade. :3
they had to do a coup with the implicit threat of violence to enforce the new government
OP would do well to pay attention to this bit in particular as (a version of) this basic framework is also how civil rights groups like the suffragettes and the err civil rights movement progressed their struggles. MLK et al were able to be nonviolent because the implicit threat of more radical black nationalist groups existed. without the backing of force nonviolent protest is easy to ignore by those in power, as we’ve seen with every left-leaning protest movement since the collapse of the USSR
Change never comes without a fight. In the shadows, blood is spilled, and it will continue to flow. Today, it’s not yours, but tomorrow it might be. Some saw the suffering of others and chose to sacrifice, so others wouldn’t have to. At least be thankful for their sacrifice.
What “change” are we taking about here?
Slavery, Decolonization, worker rights, women rights, black people rights, “Put any word here” rights,etc…
Many of those have been accomplished by protests, that led to changes in law, that led to changes in society. Some by war, yes.
None by revolution, that I’m aware of. None by anarchy, that I’m aware of. In most cases revolution seems to throw things the other way, back into slavery, back into repression.
What client is that?
connect for lemmy!
Ye think slavery, worker rights, and decolonization was done merely by protests and by the mere will of liberalism?
This is historically completely false. I challenge you to find a single historical case where a ruling class has given up their power and wealth without violence or the threat of violence.
Meanwhile I recommend you read the links we’ve given you.
that I’m aware of
that I’m aware of
Reading history is how a lot of us became communists in the first place. It’s very likely that you just don’t realize how much you don’t know. You’ve been given quite a few topics across threads in here already, but a few intro level books to check out are The Jakarta Method, Blackshirts and Reds, and Washington Bullets
This is ahistorical, really. Revolution has historically happened in progressive movements beyond brutal previous conditions, whether it be the Haitian Slave Revolt, the French overthrow of the Monarchy, the Russian overthrow of the brutal Tsarist regime, the Cuban revolt against slavery and fascism, and more.
I think you would do well for yourself by studying history of revolutionary movements.
So you’re telling me none of those lead to more brutal oppression than before?
If you just want to limit it to Haiti, Cuba, and the USSR, then yes each of those revolutions led to a vastly more humane society than the previous one. It also depends on who you’re asking. Tsar Nicholas II certainly didn’t see the Soviet Union as an improvement. Cuban plantation owners with dozens of slaves didn’t see socialism as an improvement. There are winners and losers in history, the losing side usually isn’t going to be pleased.
And who loses in a revolution? In a successful socialist revolution it’s the capitalist class, colonizers, slavers, the previous bureaucracy, regional landlords. The USSR went from a backwater literal peasant kingdom to a space faring modern country within a single generation, despite a famine and despite the brutal loss of life in WW2. It’s very easy to say the country that sends women to school to become nuclear engineers is not as brutally oppressive as the country with a monarch that forcefully sends women to become nuns. How do you determine oppression? Go look at things like literacy, child mortality, education, home ownership, access to clean water, and what kind of occupations women have. By those metrics, socialist revolutions typically and vastly reduce oppression.
Some have, yes, but of the ones I listed, absolutely not.
Revolution isn’t an action, it’s a consequence of failing and unsustainable conditions. You don’t do a Revolution, it happens and you can participate in it.
I think you are vastly underestimating the horrors of most pre-revolutionary societies, and probably also overestimating what you describe as oppression in post-revoltionary governments.
On the first point, here’s an excerpt from a JFK speech where he describes pre-revolution Cuba:
The third, and perhaps most disastrous of our failures, was the decision to give stature and support to one of the most bloody and repressive dictatorships in the long history of Latin American repression. Fulgencio Batista murdered 20,000 Cubans in seven years - a greater proportion of the Cuban population than the proportion of Americans who died in both World Wars, and he turned Democratic Cuba into a complete police state - destroying every individual liberty.
And JFK was no friend of Castro; he greenlit the Bay of Pigs invasion! Revolutions are born from the most brutal forms of exploitation and violence. Not even the wildest anticommunist propaganda about post-revolution Cuba comes close to the reality of what the revolution replaced.
yeah you’re never going to improve as a person. just vote blue no matter who and try not to think about all the violence your empire requires to maintain itself.
Undialectical take, people are constantly changing. Now it may take a lot of quantitative changes for the qualitative affect of not having their head in their ass to come about given how far in there it is, but…
you’re absolutely right but some people just cry out for bullying
♫ They say in Harlan County, there are no neutrals there: you’ll either be a union man or a thug for J. H. Blair — Which side are you on, which side are you on? ♫
Edit: TO COMMUNISTS, ANARCHISTS, OR ANYONE ELSE CALLING FOR THE OVERTHROW OF SOCIETY
THIS OBVIOUSLY ISN’T MEANT FOR YOU.
So… Why are you asking questions about what ‘left’ means if you don’t want answers from the left???
This is off topic but is there something wrong with the hexbear client or is everyone here just making individual comments at each other instead of replying?
Which client are you using?
Well it doesn’t necessarily matter anymore because your reply fixed it lol
Edit: TO COMMUNISTS, ANARCHISTS, OR ANYONE ELSE CALLING FOR THE OVERTHROW OF SOCIETY
THIS OBVIOUSLY ISN’T MEANT FOR YOU.
You’re asking why radical leftists reject your reformism. Who other than radical leftists are going to give you an actual answer instead of a pat on the back?
Anyway the answer is liberalism is far more violent, it just exports the violence overseas and commits it at an industrialised level. The infamous “Terror” in France only killed a few thousand people - the Iraq war killed over a million. While millions were killed in the cultural revolution, hundreds of millions were killed by the British Raj. Revolutionary violence is in fact far less violent than regular capitalism, so you’re hated for supporting its continuation.
You are to the right of communists, who will not consider you “validly left” unless your ideology is anti-capitalist at a bare minimum. We consider capitalism to be the greatest cause of violence in the 20th and 21st centuries.
Alternately, you are to the left of fascists, who would consider you “validly left” as they rounded you up for the camps. Validity is all relative.
On another note, I think you massively misunderstand the difference between calls for revolutionary leftist violence and random people cheering on Trump getting shot, for example.
