So, I’m just assuming we’ve all seen the discussions about the bear.
Personally I feel that this is an opportunity for everyone to stop and think a little about it.
The knee-jerk reaction from many men seems to be something along the lines of “You would choose a dangerous animal over me? That makes me feel bad about myself.” which results in endless comments of the “Akchully… according to Bayes theorem you are much more likely to…” kind.
It should be clear by now that it doesn’t lead to good places.
Maybe, and I’m open to being wrong, but maybe the real message is women saying: “We are scared of unknown men.”
Then, if that is the message intended, what do we do next? Maybe the best thing is just to listen. To ask questions. What have you experienced to make you feel that way?
I firmly believe that the empathy we give lays a foundation for other people being willing to have empathy for the things we try to communicate.
It doesn’t mean we should feel bad about ourselves, but just to recognize that someone is trying to say something, and it’s not a technical discussion about bears.
What do you think?
As someone who has suffered heavy physical and verbal abuse [including threats of false rape and even an instance where she said she’d hurt herself and tell everyone including the police I was the one who did it to her] from a female for 3 years and has since developed severe mental and trauma issues from it, if I said:
“If I was given a choice to be stranded in the woods with either a bear or a woman, I would choose the bear, because the bear wouldn’t accuse me of raping it if I ignored it.”
How would you feel? See, I’ve said this before, and I just got downvoted to oblivion because guys can’t be abused! It’s discrimination against women! It’s sexist. How dare you not support women! It invalidates their feelings and experience with abuse! Statistically, its more likely to happen to females, so we’re more understanding with their situations! HOWEVER, these same people are 100% all in on dogpiling any male with the audacity to say, “This is offensive. Not all men are like that!”, and they’re all too happy and eager to invalidate male experiences simply because it’s “Not as common.”
Which makes it pretty obvious at this point, to me at least, that comments like this stupid “bear” comment serve only one purpose: to shit on men, simply to shit in them. It’s MISANDRY but nobody wants to talk about it, because fuck men, we don’t deserve support, we don’t deserve validation and we don’t deserve any rights. As men, we are BIG and STRONG and TOUGH and SCARY. How DARE we want to be met equally when it comes to being abused. Just shake it off!
And there they are. The downvotes. Thanks for literally proving my point, folks.
“If I was given a choice to be stranded in the woods with either a bear or a woman, I would choose the bear, because the bear wouldn’t accuse me of raping it if I ignored it.”
Seem like you are actually in a place to understand from your own experience what women are trying to communicate with that whole bear thing. Next step would be to try to have an empathic connection instead of a defensive one. The anger and frustration are not directed at you as an individual but are an expression of experiences, those nuances are often lost in online, non personal communication. What helps is to have more personal communication, better in an offline environment.
I also have a similar experience, I was mugged at knife point and spit on by two adolescents. After that I was jumpy around groups of teens.
That said , I do not think my fear of teens was rational, neither was it healthy. Only a small minority of teens will mug people. Fearing a whole group for the actions of the few is in human nature, but it is something we must fight against.
I mean what is the end goal if women are in fear of men ? You can probably reduce violent crime even more, but it remains a rare event. Only 31 out of 1000 people were victims of a violent crime in the UK in 2010. If that doesn’t work, what remains? Sex segregation ?
So you think it will help to just tell folks to not be afraid? How did you overcame your fear? What if similar experiences happened to your and your friends more than once?
On personal level, in my experience it’s best to validate someones emotions and then help them work through them if they wish so and are ready. On societal level it’s another question on how to teach people more empathy and to respect for others - and at least in my opinion we already came quite a way.
Preach brother, preach
It’s a hill I will fucking die on.
If men were a minority group, this would lead to calls for the male community to police itself and report suspicious behaviour to the authorities.
women aren’t a minority.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minority_group
In terms of sociology, economics, and politics, a demographic that takes up the smallest fraction of the population is not necessarily labelled the “minority” if it wields dominant power. In the academic context, the terms “minority” and “majority” are used in terms of hierarchical power structures.
This is why I like the term “marginalised group.” But maybe it has its own definition that I’m not using correctly or something
Then, if that is the message intended, what do we do next?
Fuck off.
When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time. - Maya Angelou
If a woman tells you you threaten her more than a wild bear does, fucking listen, then fuck off. She is actively telling you you frighten her more than a fucking polar or grizzly. Why would you stick around? Do you enjoy terrifying people? Show some fucking respect and leave her alone forever, like she literally just asked you to. As a free bonus, you’ll never have to hear her say it to you again.
Maybe it depends on the type of bear.
If it’s brown, lay down. If it’s black, fight back. If it’s white, say good night (RIP).
On the other side of things, there’s probably the context. Some women would never go into the woods at all, so if they’re there with a strange man, things are probably going to get bad.
But if there’s a bear, they’re probably alone, and just need to leave the area. The bear lives in the woods (unless it’s a polar bear), and it’s probably minding its own business.
Maybe what depends on the type of bear? Because the context is what a man should do when a woman tells him she’d rather be near a bear than him.
I’d love to hang out with a sun bear.
Sun bears are shy and reclusive animals, and usually do not attack humans unless provoked to do so, or if they are injured or with their cubs; their timid nature led these bears to be often tamed and kept as pets in the past
Definitely would rather be in the woods with a strange sun bear than a strange man. What if he tries to get me into Magic The Gathering?
But she’s not telling me, is she? She’s telling every man everywhere, forever. I can’t do anything with that information, except wonder if she’s calling for all men and women to be strictly segregated for women’s safety. At which point you’ve gone so far into nth-wave feminism that you’ve arrived at Saudi society as as model.
It’s woman specific, because she can’t speak for any woman but her, and her rights matter no more than yours do, if you’re concerned about situations where you both want or need to be in the same space.
IME the women who do this are the one who are the predators.
so yeah, if a unhinged lady goes off on me how i’m a huge threat to her, i do fuck off, because she’s probably a psycho. normal, well adjusting folks don’t go off on random strangers minding their own business.
I hike all the time. Nobody says more than a polite hi, or a wave or nod. men and women, solo, or in groups.
Bluntly, I wouldn’t want to have some lady I’ve never met, trapped in the forest with me either. Not because I’m a bad person, far from it.
I feel like I’d be rather handy if I was lost in a forest, but she wouldn’t know that.
Fact is, any lady weighing in on the discussion doesn’t have any reasonable guarantee or even a reasonable probability of getting someone half as helpful as me, and a nontrivial chance of getting a date rapist, so I get it. The worst that a bear would do is kill and eat them, and if they’re lucky, it’ll happen in that order. There are fates worse than death.
I don’t take any offense at someone answering “bear”. At all. It’s an age old question, of the devil that you know, versus the devil that you don’t. Sure, there’s a non-zero chance you’ll end up in the woods with bear grylls (or someone with a similar skillset), or Mr. Rogers (or similarly kind person), but the far more likely scenario is not that.
It’s not a statement against me personally as a male, it’s a statement about the average man. If that offends you, there’s a good chance that you’re part of the problem.
I’m not here to judge. So I’ll let you decide for yourself.
The fact is, unknown men is basically a gamble most aren’t willing to make. What can we do about it? Probably somewhere between Jack and squat. Unless we can “fix” the socially inept and creepy men, as well as the rapists, would-be (opportunistic) rapists, date rapists, and just all around shitty men, pretty much all at once, this stereotype isn’t going anywhere. Just be the change you want to see in the world, and try to encourage your brothers to be better.
There is a book I will mention that will get me downvoted to oblivion, but it is very relevant to this discussion. It is called “White Fragility” and it discusses the following phenomenon: When vulnerable groups express criticism of societal problems, individuals will take that criticism personally and redirect the conversation towards their feelings. This has the effect, whether intended or otherwise, of shutting out the voice of the vulnerable group and forestalling any meaningful change. The book identifies this phenomenon in discussions of race, but I hope you can identify the parallels.
Yeah I absolutely still don’t understand what this supposed Bear meme thing is… like I guess some girl chose to be in a room with a bear instead of in a room with a man? Was it just a meme? I have no idea what is going on or why everyone is so upset about it it seems like something to just divert attention away from something else
A bear is a known a danger and really doesn’t care about you unless you piss it off. In fact, loud noises might just scare it away even if a brown bear.
While most men are probably safe enough to have around, enough are unsafe or just generally give off that vibe that women don’t want to be alone with them and a loud noise won’t scare them away. You might “know” you’re safe but they have zero reason to trust you.
Sure she might get someone who wants to work together to be mutually safe and will make efforts to leave her be otherwise, but she might also get someone who stands just a bit too close, who starts trying to “help” just a bit physically, or even who starts to get frustrated when they don’t get some kind of reward for just being some minimum level of decent. And if they’re really unlucky they get someone who just sees the isolation of the situation as an opportunity.
The bear is a known quantity. The man could be anything and there are far too many examples of every part of the spectrum. At least the bear won’t sexually assault her even at the worst.
Well that’s just ridiculous… a bear is a wild animal who will fucking maul you to death and eat you and doesn’t care about you at all … a man is a human being, and human beings can be reasoned with… I don’t knoooooowwwwww… this whole thing just, again, sounds like a way to get the masses riled up about something that really doesn’t matter and doesn’t really even make any kind of logical sense really in the grand scheme of things… it just seems like something to argue about for argument’s sake… it’s a good debate topic but that’s about it… be it resolved that men are worse than bears?? LOL I don’t know whole thing is kind of silly to me… but thank you so much for your explanation of it
It’s rage bait. It just a polarizing content meant to rile up the masses and make us argue and bicker. It takes some societal grievances and amplifies them needlessly.
Well it sure worked haha even on Lemmy good old social conditioning
I like how they took the time to explain it extremely well as to why us women feel this way, and your response was simply “lol nah that’s bullshit”.
I’d much rather run into a bear in the woods than run into a man like you in the woods.
Wildly enough… get ready for this one… I’m a chick. I took the time to say thank you so much for explaining it. But you can’t honestly genuinely tell me that you would rather be faced with a literal wild bear from actual nature, than another human being… that’s something for a therapist and not for the internet… and if you’re one of those chicks who genuinely feels that terrified of men, you need to speak to somebody because it’s not natural. And if you’re one of those chicks that gets wildly crazily madly offended to the point where they think they’d rather be trapped in a room with a wild animal with teeth and Claws that see you as food then be around another human being with an opinion, you also need a therapist, because it’s the internet. It’s not life or death… which it absolutely would be with a whole actual bear in the room.
A bear wouldn’t possibly beat or torture me or rape me. A bear wouldn’t try to kidnap me and lock me in its basement as its personal sex slave. A man might. A bear would simply try to eat me or run away, it’s predictable. But go off about how it’s totally safe to run into a strange man in the woods as a woman. 🙄
As a guy, I don’t know shit about women, but bears are absolutely famous for being unpredictable. That’s why they’re considered dangerous. Not like moose, which are dangerous for being gigantic and incredibly dumb.
Bears also love in the woods, so it’s pretty normal for bears to be there. There’s a decent chance it’s just minding its business. I wouldn’t want to be around a bear, but I also wouldn’t want to be around a man with bad intentions.
Humans are also absolutely famous for being unpredictable, fwiw
…yikes. Have fun living in your world. So glad I don’t live there.
I see you’re one of the 2/3 of women who haven’t been sexually assaulted by a man. That’s good, I’m glad for you. But, as a man and in view of those statistics, I have to say it’s entirely justified for most women to prefer the bear.
and it’s entirely justified for a devout religious person to avoid sin.
and i will think they are an asshole if they go around telling me how sinful and awful i am for not believing what they believe.
That there is not true as well… I’ve been assaulted more than most. I’ve been a sex worker. But I’ve also been in the woods and seen what an actual bear looks like and did not fucking stick around. It’s a bear… I don’t know what everybody doesn’t get about that it’s a bear.
Alright, so I’m on team “alone in the woods with a bear”, but since you want to talk statistics, let’s talk statistics and the heteronormativity embedded in your statistics.
The figure I’m familiar with is that 1/4 of women have been sexually assaulted. Maybe you have a figure that says 1/3, that’s fine. But crucially, these figures do not say who did it. What you’ve made is an assumption that women only get sexually assaulted by men. Personally, I think that the vast, vast majority of sexual assaults on women are done by men. But not all. I don’t believe you can transfer those two statistics - women sexually assaulted and women sexually assaulted by a man - 1:1.
Let me explain where I’m coming from. Half of transgender and nonbinary people have been sexually assaulted. That’s double the number of women! This factor, double, is consistent across sources I’ve seen that investigate both figures with the same methodology. You might have a source that says 1/3 of women are sexually assaulted, that’s fine, but the ones that investigate rates for both women and trans people say it’s twice as many trans people.
I could go ahead and assume, if I wanted, that half of all trans people have been sexually assaulted by a cis person. That’s the same assumption you made that 1/3 or 1/4 of women have been sexually assaulted by a man. But it’s a bad assumption. I know lots of trans people who’ve been sexually assaulted, and most of the time it was by a fellow trans person. You see, trans people have our own community that’s isolated from the cisgender dating scene as a matter of safety, and that means isolated, lonely people let their guard down around fellow transes and the victims can’t get away from their abusers, nor are trans friends of trans abusers willing to give up a social network in which the abuser is embedded. It’s messy and disgusting and it wouldn’t be a problem if cis people just accepted us, but it’s where we are. I would be wrong to assume all rapists of trans people are cis people.
And I read way too deep into your comment and got a vibe that you were making the assumption that all sexual abusers of women are men. You probably don’t actually think that and didn’t mean to make any kind of implication along those lines. So I’m just leaving this comment as a general reminder not to use heteronormativity to inform our statistical analyses.
I don’t understand why this is a problem. I would choose an animal over a human, man or woman.
How is the appropriate answer not to just kill yourself because no matter what you do, you’re going to be scaring someone just for existing?
I feel like a product of a bygone era that should just…not exist anymore. Existing as a ‘good man’ doesn’t do any good.
That can never be the appropriate answer. I’m sorry if you sometimes feel like that. It can really feel like a situation with no way to win. Perhaps it’s not about winning. In this case, something is being communicated. I bet that there are different things being communicated by different people, but using the same words. Someone might be trying to say “things in my past has made it difficult for me to trust men.” Someone else might want to be edgy because they enjoy “kicking upward”. We don’t know. On the internet, the loud edgy people rule. In real life, most women I’ve actually talked to are much more understanding and willing to see the nuances and how complicated things can be. If the internet people are getting to you, a good exercise can be to talk to real people more. They don’t want you dead. They probably want good interactions. Maybe every good interaction makes their fear diminish just a little.
It doesn’t really matter if you scare someone you don’t know. They don’t know you either. Ultimately it’s reasonable to be uncomfortable around strangers.
If you still scare people even after interacting with them, don’t take it personally. Lots of people have biases and past traumatic experiences that might paint you any which way.
Just focus on being kind and liked by the communities you’re in, and don’t take a defeatist mentality over someone being scared of you at first.
My grandparents would say something similar to this TikToker about certain “kinds” of people, and I rightfully consider them fucking abhorrent for it. I consider someone who would unironically say this kind of shit to be the same kind of abhorrent.
Seeing all these comments that actually get it gives me hope for us dudes. I interact with so many dudebro types at work, and only have so much energy. And then coming onto Lemmy and seeing the same shit - it gets demoralizing real quick.
We gotta get dudes out of their own heads somehow - make them actually think about how they’re affecting those around them, and get them to expand the number of ways they positively affect their local sphere and minimize the negative ways.
There is hope, I think. I wanted to have sort of a meta-discussion about the question from a mens lib point of view. Like, this thing is circulating, it seems to be making many people upset, what is a healthy way to interpret or react to it?
I think it’s to have the conversation with those close to us that felt offended in a measured, methodical fashion. I find that it often seems completely foreign for some of the guys I’ve talked to put themselves into someone else’s shoes.
It is a slog quite often, and I think that there is some kind of training out there for having these kinds of conversations.
As always, it’s about talking to these people without getting them offended. I agree with other leftists that it’s absolutely exhausting - it honestly feels like some of these dudes want nothing but to feel like the victim of the situation sometimes. I still try and talk them through it when I can.
it honestly feels like some of these dudes want nothing but to feel like the victim of the situation sometimes.
A part of this could be to recognize that they too might be trying to communicate something, wanting people to listen. The stalemate of mutual lack of listening. It’s really a tricky, circular thing, and probably it’s hard to just say “shut up and listen” to either side, when a precondition for listening is having trust that the other one will listen too.
I’m interested in increasing this trust between people. I also recognize that there is a level of feeling dismissed within me that makes me care less about others, and I assume that others could have that too.
If we could figure out a way to be at least a net positive in building trust and listening, then, well, step by small step, reinforcing the mutual feeling of trust, that would be good.
But sometimes it just feels impossible.
For those that haven’t seen it, the bear meme is an article some lady wrote. A majority of women would rather be alone in the woods with a random bear, than a random man. Then she posted about getting hate mail for that.
Oh I read it as beer and was confused for a while
I would love to be in the woods with beer.
The “random” part does really take the fun out of it though.
Free beer is my favorite brand.
I think a lot of men believe “I’m one of the good ones” and don’t stop to think that a random woman on the street (or in the woods, in this case) has no way of determining that.
and plenty of women who think they are ‘the good ones’ are an abusive psycho. and men have no way of knowing until they are abused by her.
And George Washington Carver was genius with peanuts. Whats that got to do with the topic at hand?
I think you might be right in that idea. One time I was out with my wife at a club show. She got a little too drunk and stumbling. I was walking her out of the club to pick up the metro and go home, when some chick stopped us (her) and whispered something in my wife’s ear.
My wife responded “No, it’s good. He’s my husband.” When I asked my wife what was that about and she told me that she was “checking to make sure I knew you.” My first response was “oh yeah that makes sense. Men suck.” I was low-key glad they checked on my wife though. They had no way of knowing if “I’m one of the good ones.”
Did they apologize to you afterwards? If not then that’s what’s fucked up about this whole situation in society. You can’t treat a person that you just suspected was a harasser like wind after you do it, and excuse it with “men are shitty, so I’m forgiven for my own shitty behaviour towards the good ones”.
I had a pretty pivotal experience around this realization when I was in my late teens. A buddy of mine and I were driving around town running errands, and we ended up driving past this same woman a couple of times like miles apart. At one point, I rolled down my window and asked if she needed a ride. The look on her face broke part of me. She was terrified of me. I’d never been looked at like that before.
I was so nieve at that point in my life. It never even occurred to me how horrifying 2 guys you don’t know rolling up and trying to get you in their car might be. Neither of had any bad intentions…it was hot as hell out, and we figured she’d been walking for miles at that point. But none of that matters…we were like clumsy giants destroying a village we wanted to visit because we never considered the fact that we were just too big.
I still feel bad when I think about it and that was 20 years ago.
I went on a date with a woman many years ago and we had dinner. It’s was clear we weren’t vibing but we had a polite dinner and chatted and on the way out insisted I could drive her home instead of her taking an Uber like she did to get there. I offered a couple times and she agreed. I dropped her off and watched from the car to make sure she made it inside. I had good intentions and didn’t intended to do anything more than drop her off. But man looking back, I wish I would have just waited with her for the Uber to show up. I bet that was uncomfortable for her.
It’s worth to know that nobody is ever infallible. I’ve always thought that same thing, “I’m a good guy.”. But I’ve learned that it’s better to think, “i may think I’m a good guy, but I need to be careful about how I come off,” because I have said some fucked up things without realizing it.
Like, I have genuinely made some people uncomfortable without me realizing it, and I’ve been trying hard to be more aware of not only the situation I’m putting someone in, but the vibes I’m giving off.
You get it
If you took it personally, you might be part of the problem
Or just gay? You’re being an ass.
Downvoted for being gay. So now you’re a misandrist and a homophobe. Are you collecting them?
Yeah, it seems the guys that heard this and just said “yeah, that tracks” have already done the thought process/critical analysis that this movement is trying to evoke
Made me realize (hyperbole) how literal people are, how ready some are to dig their heels in and not interested in listening at all. If one ever had a conversation with a women (hyperbole), the unsafe feeling is something that comes up pretty often (I guess the women has to feel safe around you - so maybe there is that) and is sadly based on personal negative experiences they had.
I read somewhere and like to mention it to other guys when it comes up in conversation about the difference between a man’s and woman’s greatest fear on a date.
The man is usually scared of being laughed at or rejected. The woman is usually scared of being killed.
It kinda puts things into perspective for me.
I agree, This polarization is something I wish we had a strategy against. Or, at least, the knowledge to identify something as likely to result in heel-digging. The reason I believe we should discuss this meme here is not to figure out the statistics of wildlife, but to gain insights about how certain things affect us, and what type of response is desired and helpful.
