(Content warning, discussions of SA and misogyny, mods I might mention politics a bit but I hope this can be taken outside the context of politics and understood as a discussion of basic human decency)
We all know how awful Reddit was when a user mentioned their gender. Immediate harassment, DMs, etc. It’s probably improved over the years? But still awful.
Until recently, Lemmy was the most progressive and supportive of basic human dignity of communities I had ever followed. I have always known this was a majority male platform, but I have been relatively pleased to see that positive expressions of masculinity have won out.
All of that changed with the recent “bear vs man” debacle. I saw women get shouted down just for expressing their stories of being sexually abused, repeatedly harassed, dogpiled, and brigaded with downvotes. Some of them held their ground, for which I am proud of them, but others I saw driven to delete their entire accounts, presumably not to return.
And I get it. The bear thing is controversial; we can all agree on this. But that should never have resulted in this level of toxicity!
I am hoping by making this post I can kind of bring awareness to this weakness, so that we can learn and grow as a community. We need to hold one another accountable for this, or the gender gap on this site is just going to get worse.
im totally ootl. someone explain?
Hope you’re feeling better today our kid. Don’t take it to heart so much. Listen, I’m going toilet, back in a bit.
If the fear for a typical woman is this bad, then we need to be better about teaching boys. I’m a pretty empathetic person, just ask my new very rapidly made female best friend. But despite the wife, and a few pretty damn close female friends, close mom, sister…. The fears expressed in my short reading on the current discussion have never been as clearly communicated, well the fear was definitely clear, but not the magnitude.
I agree with the sentiment that it’s just a bad premise. It puts everyone straight into a defensive posture, and no one learns anything when they’re trying to defend their sense of self.
On the other hand, if people are going to DMs to harass beyond the context of the heated conversation… well they ARE DEFINITELY the kind of people who are a threat, and need to be dealt with.
takes like this are fascinating to me because it seems like people have finished the war, and come to terms with the horrors it’s caused, so to speak.
The internet is a weird fucking place bro.
there’s an unpopular community here? Funny that i haven’t seen it until now.
Anyway, on the bear man thingy. I thought that was rather interesting, as a “man” myself i saw a rather similar situation but from the opposite perspective (i hadn’t seen or heard of this before, so i was really fucking confused initially)
incoming personal opinion btw, if you’re scared of those, you should look away :)
I think it’s less “bad for women” more “The internet causing people to yell at each other over stupid shit for no particular reason” than anything. Naturally it was an incredibly polarized topic. The wording was specifically designed to generate outrage and attention around it (i feel like i don’t really have to explain why) and a lot of people were taking very tribal stances on either side, with the information they had, without properly considering all factors (because thought experiments turn out to be more than surface level, weirdly enough.)
idk, i just didn’t really experience anything that wasn’t “fuck u/spez, he probably rapes little girls” levels of shenanigans. Then again, i’m internet hardened so you wouldn’t be able to shake me with anything really.
Whoa I missed this whole man bear thing. Is it like ManBearPig?
Here is an excellent summary I came across: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/comment/8694944
Thank you for posting this. I had no fucking clue what this was about but after reading that summary I immediately thought bear would be the answer. It makes sense because human men are more than just trying to survive - there’s a higher cognitive thinking and humans are fucked up so more than likely a man would result in psychological trauma on a personal level that is worse than whatever the bear would do.
For the record, I am male.
Who will win: Gender equality or a funny bear
I’ve been away for a few weeks and I’ve missed this whole thing I think, does anybody have a link?
Here’s my take: the bear thing is causing such a visceral reaction that it is very hard to take a step back, not take it personally and have a rational discussion about it. Even if you know the statistics. Even if you’re absolutely certain you’d do the right thing (or maybe especially then).
I was exposed to a somewhat similar experience in college: while walking through the campus one evening I realised the girl in front of me was a good friend of mine, so I rushed to catch up. When she heard me she quickened her pace close to running, and only stopped when I said her name and something like “wait up!”. I was just happy to meet a friend. She, on the other hand, was absolutely terrified, and told me all about it as we walked towards the exit.
That evening I realised that women experience the world much different than men. That there’s an underlying level of potential violence that they evaluate and weigh against potential benefits from encounters and interactions with men in almost all social contexts. And knowing that has recalibrated my behaviour to a certain extent, as I realised women can’t afford to give me the benefit of the doubt, especially in contexts where they feel vulnerable.
I wish more men would get this point, especially in their formative years. It’s not a judgement on their character when women that barely know them are careful around them. Trust needs to be earned. And for a woman, the cost of misplaced trust is too damn high.
That evening I realised that women experience the world much different than men. That there’s an underlying level of potential violence that they evaluate and weigh against potential benefits from encounters and interactions with men in almost all social contexts. And knowing that has recalibrated my behaviour to a certain extent, as I realised women can’t afford to give me the benefit of the doubt, especially in contexts where they feel vulnerable.
Once, I noticed once I was being followed by someone on my college campus once. Sure it made me a bit anxious, but as a reasonably large male-presenting person in a place I felt relatively safe, I didn’t really think they were a threat as long as I kept to crowded areas so it was just a mild discomfort. Turns out it was a random teacher (not one of mine) who just decided to try to keep pace with me because I was walking fast. At least he eventually explained himself eventually, but like isn’t it obvious that you shouldn’t just follow strangers around? Did he just think I wouldn’t notice them following me? Are many guys that oblivious to their surroundings that they wouldn’t notice? Or unaware of how that would make someone uncomfortable? Not implying you trying to catch up to a friend is comparable: just something your story reminded me of.
I think most people are somewhat oblivious to them making others feel uncomfortable because they can clearly see you and they don’t feel nervous, so their brain tells them no one around them feels nervous. The more the reverse happens (them feeling followed) the more aware they’ll become that they’re doing it.
I wish more men would get this point, especially in their formative years. It’s not a judgement on their character when women that barely know them are careful around them. Trust needs to be earned. And for a woman, the cost of misplaced trust is too damn high.
yeah it’d be nice, the funny thing is that this bear fiasco doesn’t do a whole lot to express this point, nor does do it do a whole to not talk about it even remotely at all to people.
Doesn’t help that speaking about gender broadly in classrooms is “technically not allowed anymore” because this would be a really fucking good place to be talking about it.
We seem to be shooting ourselves in the feet one step after another here, and i’m not quite sure how we got here.
Very true, but I think there’s something lost in translation when people go on the internet and turn “I need to be cautious around men because they might be dangerous” to “Men are dangerous,” and this generalization is what causes so much of the backlash online.
Yeah man, thanks for sharing your story, genuinely very poignant.
But at this point I genuinely don’t care about the bear thing. Women were harrased into leaving the platform, nothing was done to the accounts who did it, and that’s the story here.
I didn’t see any abuse, but I did notice how livid some people were about the whole thing. I am still at a loss as to how the original statement could cause such outrage. I took it as some hyperbole to highlight a serious issue. That’s nothing any remotely stable person takes offence at. Any guy berating other people over dumb shit like this is exactly the kind of man the original statement was about.
i think part of the problem was people being pissed off that “people didn’t understand it” and as a result, responding very aggressively, which then leads to more people responding aggressively, which leads to the initial person responding aggressively to those people. Inevitably what happens is someone gets confused and doesnt understand it, and then gets yelled at, to which they then yell back at. And suddenly, “you can’t yell at me, i can yell at you though” starts to appear.
etc.etc.etc. and now misandry/misogyny is in the mix… Yay!
Harassment should not be tolerated, period. Totally with you on this.
And thank you for the kind words.
I guess I’m out of the loop or something cause I haven’t seen any of it, but harassers should be blocked by mods.
I’m in the same boat. Are they just being reported before I can see them?
Do you have any of the accounts doing the harassment? If you would, DM me those that you have, and I’ll personally look into it, and reach out to instance admins with my findings.
done, thank you
I needed to read this. Thanks
Here’s my take: the bear thing is causing such a visceral reaction that it is very hard to take a step back, not take it personally and have a rational discussion about it.
Imo the bear thing was phrased in a way to cause that visceral reaction. It was intended to be antagonistic. If the same point was phrased the way you phrased it above, I want to believe we would have much more civil discussion about it. But instead, the posts put many male readers on the defensive and those that tried to explain were seen as defending this antagonistic stance.
That is no excuse for DM harassment or harassment on other posts, just my take on the reason the discussion turned so uncivil.
So what is the bear thing? I’ve seen reference to it a couple of times… I get the gist, but like what’s the source?
Apparently a tiktok video? I haven’t seen the original, however if you pop open a search for “man vs bear” or “man or bear in the woods” there’s some other coverage on it
Just a post of someone saying they’d rather be stuck in the middle of the woods with a bear rather than with an unknown man, been posted lots of places not just lemmy.
I’m confused. How is that controversial, and how are people taking it personally?
The first one is just an expression of biases that their experiences have resulted in. As for the second one, I’m clueless. Maybe if you feel like the main character in every situation, they’d be offended because the man in reference is then, and as such not unknown?
If I had to guess I’d say because “an unknown man” can be intepreted as “an average man” which obviously is going to hit a lot of people.
The actual statistics of man vs bear is not really the point through, and a large number people did not get that. It’s just that the question was phrased (intentionally or unintentionally) in a way that lends itself to this comparison.
Thanks. In other words just not understanding basic words and statistics?
In this case, unknown/random sample != average of samples. Being alone in the woods, and encountering a bear, is arguably more dangerous than the average male human. Most bears that aren’t grizzlies will happily leave you alone, which I hope is also the case with the average man. If you are unlucky with which person you encounter, the dangers can be much worse.
Probably Bayesian elements here too, where the end result is “what is riskier”, with an implicit assumption of “meeting a bear” = unlikely, “meeting a man” = likely (relatively). In any case, not listening to the emotional takeaway from shitty experiences, is, ironically, a very male stereotype.
How would you feel if the hypothetical was asking if you’d rather encounter a bear or a Muslim?
What about a bear or a person who is black?
Or a bear vs an immigrant?
See the issue?
Also, when we dehumanize or other an entire sex (which is what we’re doing here) who do you think suffers the most irl from that dehumanization?
Because it isn’t rich white men in gated suburban communities. It’s the black and brown men who are already viewed as inherently harmful and are disproportionately violently victimized by police and the state.
If we want more George Floyds then we should keep spreading memes like this. Because this contributes to the mindset that allows us to view men of color as inherently dangerous superpredators
I’m going to take all your questions at face value, and assume it’s all good faith.
How would you feel if the hypothetical was asking if you’d rather encounter a bear or a Muslim?
My emotions are not that fickle. I also don’t see an inherent problem with questions, nor this one in particular. It would be stupid of me to assume you mean something more specific than what you’ve stated. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt, and ask to clarify constraints.
What about a bear or a person who is black?
Same thing here. You realise that what we’d be exploring is the concept of, and awareness of, potential biases and prejudices? And, more importantly, the prevalence of experiences that lead to such biases?
Or a bear vs an immigrant?
Oh, this one is clear cut. Immigrants are the fucking worst.
(jk)
See the issue?
Nope. I don’t. You should re-evaluate the purpose of having conversations and discussing hypotheticals.
Also, when we dehumanize or other an entire sex (which is what we’re doing here) who do you think suffers the most irl from that dehumanization?
Is that what you think we’re doing here? If so, then we arrived at what the misunderstanding is. Which is a good thing. Or, it is if you give a shit about understanding the argument, and less about making your own. The latter is of course fine, but, on its own.
Because it isn’t rich white men in gated suburban communities. It’s the black and brown men who are already viewed as inherently harmful and are disproportionately violently victimized by police and the state.
If we want more George Floyds then we should keep spreading memes like this. Because this contributes to the mindset that allows us to view men of color as inherently dangerous superpredators
Not related or relevant here. Not saying it isn’t important, but, as mentioned. If you want to make your own arguments or discuss other things, that’s fine. Probably effective to start your own thread for that.
So you think dehumanizing men will not have an adverse effect on men of color. But are unable to state why.
And you realize that only a racist or a bigot would prefer to encounter a bear instead of a black person, or Muslim, or immigrant. You would have to be a bigot to think any of those groups are “worse” than a bear. Which means a person would be similarly bigoted to prefer a bear over a man. It’s the same principle - discrimination on the basis of immutable traits. Which is universally recognized as a civil rights issue
Phrased*
Not trying to be a dick just trying to be helpful!
Thanks, fixed :)
Yeah, it was ragebait alright. Then again, if it were phrased in a reasonable manner, would we be talking this much about it? If the objective was to kick-start a conversation, it did the job 110%
A conversation yes, just not a productive one. It may have done more damage than good, since many people now associate this issue with the ragebait and don’t take it seriously.
I don’t think it’s the phrasing. You would need an entirely different question to not elicit the response we saw. It wasn’t that the question that was asked that angered people, it was that women consistently chose the bear. this question would have been a nothing burger otherwise. At the same time, though, the question was pitched because the author already knew what the answer would be. They understood how frequently unknown men pose a threat to women.
What this response from many men the shows is that most dudes are still not ready to talk about just how much more dangerous the world is for women at a baseline measurement - quite explicitly because of predatory dudes.
Look at the comment from ZeroGravitas. Even if you insist on asking the question which I don’t see why, just prefacing it with what he wrote would completely transform what it was. The issue may not even be the question but the lack of context/explanation before sharing it.
I read his comment, and I disagree that it was explicitly ragebait. It was making a point attempting to bring women’s safety to the forefront of discussion (it succeeded but enflamed too much to be useful).
Which instances are we talking about? I’ve not seen this debate crop up on Kbin or Beehaw.
I’ve only seen it on lemmy and dbzer0
This is essentially the problem with forums that grow faster than mods can keep up. Everything is fine until something like this comes along. When the brigades come out, trying to maintain order and read every comment for content becomes impossible. Unfortunately all we can do is hold each other accountable. Those that can take the abuse stand their ground for others that can’t. And when the dust settles, hopefully someone will have learned something. Even if that something is just reinforcing their choice. It’s all part of maturing, both for the site and for the people. Just don’t let it get you down. This site is not representative of the general population. Neither is Reddit. There are more people in this world that empathize with you than there are on this site.
This is the equivalent of saying that MS Outlook is a community. It’s not and neither is Lemmy. Each server has its own rules, and each community on those servers can add rules beyond that.
Address a specific community or server, there’s no central control over the fediverse.
Mistake number one is sharing anything about yourself online. There’s wackos everywhere, just make shit up and look at memes.
Also porn, dont forget about porn pls.
“… make shit up and look at memes.” Wise words.
And then when get people get mad at your made up shit, it’s funnier.
ironically when you make shit up, people believe you.
when you tell them truth stuff, they say you are making it up.
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Nobody needs my comment but here it goes. I don’t take it personally, it has nothing to do with me. I don’t have any issue with people’s answers. I know that many people have PTSD and bad experiences and they’d prefer to avoid weird situations like this.
But privately there’s a part of me that likes to solve problems and consider everything for myself. I think the question is set up to imply danger by comparing a wild bear to a strange man. If the scenario were different I would expect different results: You are hiking in the desert and you become lost and you have no water. After several days you see a man who offers you water and directions. Do you choose to turn away and continue into the desert or do you accept the man’s offer to help provide water and directions to safety?
I have had traumatic experiences with people and one day I realized that I was negatively effected by them and I chose to start practicing Jiu-Jitsu where you need to be in close contact with people as you struggle to gain advantage and win points. I no longer feel the same fear and apprehension about being close to people like I did before.
If people feel a certain way I just wish them healing.
I’m not a bear but on behalf of bears I think it’s funny that many women prefer bears which unironically explains how deranged everyone is
