Until there’s a liberal space for men, it’s going to cause them to flock to lying conservatives. There, they will be indoctrinated by weird, stupid conservative bullshit that has nothing to do with any of this.
This is it.
Men underperform in things like education and work.
Who gets all the help? Women.
There is so much toxic feminism that doesn’t get attention. A male only shelter got shut down by me because the feminists protested so much until it got shut down.
There isn’t? Millions of liberal men can man just fine every day just out in public.
What are you missing?
So you don’t think there are any issues with how men are treated on the left?
As progressive as the left can be, men have been left behind and are still often expected to ‘just be a man’, while dealing with double standards and sometimes being treated like they’re inherently bad.
Edit: Copying what vzq has said to me for visibility, as this is the exact problem. Do I sound like the angry toddler in this discussion?
“I want to be treated fairly and based on how I act, and yet I don’t get that.” You are being treated based on how act. You act like a spoiled toddler that thinks he’s owed some consideration by strangers.
How exactly are men treated by the left? Perhaps you can give some examples so people understand what your problem is.
I believe these issues exist in some places in the world like the usa.
Personally as a cis man i dont experience these issues at all. I am more radical left leaning then my sisters.
The right just appear like some intolerant macho cult. They are the last people i would feel safe.
It has to be set though I recognize many fellow men do exhibit this weird macho psychology as well as laziness and illusion that they somehow know me or what i want. I never consider that to have political grounds.
If i have a choice to interact with either sex i am Biased to chose the women because i feel like there actually perceive and speak to me as individual rather then pretending i am their best friend cardboard cutout.
In my experience women are more honest as sales people and more helpfull as a frontdesk clerk. This is bias and exceptions exist. I myself am an exceptions. Statistical perception though…
I haven’t heard another guy talk about other dudes assuming you are just like them/same politics etc, but its something I’ve experienced a lot. I often have to break the news I’m not a safe space for whatever bs they are spewing.
No, I honestly do not. I do my level best to treat everyone as a person and when I mess up I apologize and try and do better. That works pretty well.
If you are treated like you are inherently bad, you may be not as good as you think you are.
Edit: nice edit man. Totally not what an angry toddler would do.
If you are treated like you are inherently bad, you may be not as good as you think you are.
Ah, blame the victim. Men get treated a certain way so it must be their fault…
There’s no victim here. Just a guy with “feelings”.
Ahh, its you. You’re the problem.
Again, just disregarding how men feel, where does that get us?
I absolutely do not act in the way that men are accused of, but blanket statements about “MeN BaD” are so frequent and widely accepted, and it’s just ignored or even praised.
Can you give a more precise example? I hope you do not mean individuals who write stuff online. In what way do left oriented organisations treat all men like they are bad?
What is a liberal space for men? That means nothing.
Liberal, as in, believing in liberty. Freedom. How many mens spaces do you know of, where a man is completely free to open up, with full liberty and freedom from immediate consequences, about feelings they may have inside of them?
There’s actually not a lot. It’s a reflection of masculine indoctrination, where men in many places are made to feel like they almost need to be ready to become a soldier at any moment. Guarded, careful. It’s no good, unless your country is actually at war.
Can you give a few examples of what men can’t say or do completely freely in liberal places?
Sure. Go over into 4chan and try any behavior they would describe as “white knighting” or “simping”. You will rapidly experience some social consequences intended to dissuade that behavior.
Experiencing social consequences for saying something people disagree with is not infringing on your freedom. Unless they band together and try to go further than simply not liking what you have to say, how is that stopping men from saying their opinion on 4chan?
Independently, I wouldn’t call 4chan a liberal place. As far as I know, 4chan started and participated in activities in the past that go far beyond simply not liking an opinion. They doxxed, harassed and threatened people, among other things. And with support from many people on that platform.
Liberal in the traditional sense, as in, believing in liberty, I’m being technical. Not meaning “leftist” the way the word has been rebranded by right-leaners. So, their adoption of “no rules” is ultra-liberal, or libertarian perhaps.
And all social consequences are social. Drawing a distinction between legal and social is arbitrary. Suffering is suffering, and employing it to control dissenting voices is fundamentally illiberal. If you can prevent certain messages from appearing on your platform, you have successfully executed a form of control.
Thus, their ultra-liberty is an illusion. It’s not real.
That has nothing to do with spaces. It’s toxic masculinity. And you combat that by being the change you want to see.
Even if there was a space like that, toxic masculinity would ruin it if it wasn’t addressed. But you might just be looking for group therapy.
So, spaces that encourage toxic masculinity do exist, and they are fully aware of their ruination. See: 4chan.org.
edit: I see some of the confusion here, since 4chan is seemingly liberal, due to having no formal rules. However, that is an illusion. A man is not actually free to say anything they like without consequences there. It’s just that the norms will be enforced by the community, instead of any kind of authority. This is not actual liberty and freedom, simply indoctrination cloaked in an illusion of freedom.
Real freedom would allow a man to express something like sympathy, or being against gamergate, and express that opinion in peace. The reality of such spaces does not actually permit this.
It seems liberal and free, but in effect it is not. This is similar to how Trump seems to be strong sometimes, but in reality is weak and cowardly. Toxic masculinity loves its illusions.
Men will blame anything else for their problems before ever admitting that toxic masculinity might be the cause of their problems
The only places I have been close to that are “toxic” male places. All boys clubs, drinking clubs, rugby clubs.
But women see them as toxic and label then like that. But if you talk to them you get more toxic than from these clubs they aren’t a part of that tell you how horrible they are.
So, I’m not a woman, nor am I overly feminine, and I still call out toxic bullshit when I see it. If you want to say the problem is women/feminists though, fine whatever, if we cleaned up our own shit first, we might be able to make that stick. But when we’re bastards and they’re bitches, and we complain, we’re kinda the fucked up ones, y’know? Since we were supposed to be strong in the first place.
Unless you just think life is shit and everyone should get used to it. Then, just move to Russia or something, for everyone’s sake.
Liberal narratives paint men as aggressive rapists at worst, and toxic manipulative sociopath at best. Liberal narratives onstantly evoke “tHe pATriArcHy” and “tOxic mAsCuLinity” hiding misandry behind pseudointellectualism
Brosif, calling a discussion of the patriarchy misandry makes it clear you don’t know what the patriarchy even is. It hurts everyone.
Brosef, the term “patriarchy” itself is (and has always been) intentionally misleading and inherently misandrist, and has played a huge role in the modern demonization of men as a result. The “academic definition” of the term is irrelevant, as the (fully intended) real world negative consequences of the term for men in the cultural zeitgeist have been systemic and pervasive, as we can see all over this thread.
This is the pseudointellectualism I’m talking about. “You don’t actually understand what it ACTUALLY means” while the meanings are clearly obfuscated for the layperson.
‘Toxic masculinity’ is referring specifically to masculinity that is toxic. It’s not referring to masculinity as a whole as toxic.
Pushes in glasses “uuum ackshually that’s not what it means”
Yeah no shit, tell that to the people on social media where the majority of popular discord takes place. And pretending that the meaning of the two isn’t obfuscated is disingenuous. At the end of the day it’s all antipositivists theory garbage that reads more like a political treatise than academic study.
Exactly. Feminist terminology like “toxic masculinity” and “patriarchy” has been very carefully chosen to be misandrist enough to result in the intended widespread popular demonization of men that we’ve seen over the past few decades, while also giving feminists enough deniability to gaslight with “that’s not what the terms ackchually mean though”.
The misandry is a feature, not a bug.
Bingo
While those are some examples of “liberal narratives”, there’s also a very real “men are harmed by the patriarchy too” narrative.
I see the problem you see and I agree with you about it, it’s just the narratives you’ve described aren’t the only liberal narratives.
That whole men are hurt by the patriarcy too is a cop-out when people get called out on their bullshit ideology
The left is the only place that is safe to open up as a man.
The right is only safe if you fit a very specific definition of manliness, one that is unrealistic. However that illusion sends millions of the gullible and impressionable chasing after an unobtainable standard.
On the far-right you’ll get punched if you like making caramel and baking cakes. The close right just calls you a slur instead.
There are few things more alienating to the wide range of male expression than the right wing.
I grew up as a conservative and was never accepted. Opening up, being emotionally vulnerable, expressing “feminine” (ie non traditional) interests: every time it lost me any sort of male friendship. I was excluded, mocked and called homophobic slurs.
I’m a cisgender straight white man but because I was a square peg to their traditional round hole I was an outcast.
The right is the cause of male depression and loneliness. It enforces the gender norms that make men feel they have to be a rock, provide for family, die for their country, shut up about their feelings.
The only safe place for men to open up is on the left.
Starting by removing the association between masculinity and being a bigot by changing male social behavior seems to be the logical first step. The change absolutely has to come from within. Starting by not tolerating it when your buddies say bigoted shit seems insignificant but is a huge step in the positive direction, and every small change counts.
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The overwhelming majority of all the right-wing men I’ve ever met have been a thousand times more miserable, angry, and bottled up than their left counterparts. The right wing inherently fosters that kind of existence with its rigidity, judgment, paranoia, and aggression.
Gangs are inclusive and welcoming even if they haze you and commit crimes. People who feel left out gravitate toward unconventional solutions to conventional problems.
Until there’s a liberal space for men, it’s going to cause them to flock to lying conservatives.
I mean, they/we also could create these spaces for us, much in the same way women did (and many other groups). And of course it’s easier to fall for reactionary groups when liberal groups are less visible, but it’s still a decision to follow their bullshit.
Shoutout to [email protected] (and similar spaces)
As soon as men try to organize and speak out we get called sexist. If men wanted to start a men only club like women are allowed they would be forced to let women in. Just look at the boy scouts (ignoring the pedophiles) they were forced to allow girls but the girl scouts don’t have to allow boys. Males can’t have anything male only.
As soon as men try to organize and speak out we get called sexist.
That’s simply not true. We have at least one counselling centre in our city that is “boys/young men only” and several “men only” self help groups. I’ve never heard them being called sexist, on the contrary people generally agree that this is a good thing and we need more of this. And they are certainly not forced to include other genders.
There are obviously not enough initiatives like these. But a blanket statement like yours is false and if you make the claim that men are regularly getting called out as sexist for forming liberal safe spaces you should provide some sources (I’m not denying that it happens, it’s just not something I’ve experienced).
Just look at the boy scouts (ignoring the pedophiles)
The goal of boy scouts wasn’t to provide a safe space to explore gender identity or emotions or anything like that. There was no reason to exclude other genders.
Women get told they need there own spaces for mental health, women’s issues, to have women’s chat.
Men aren’t allowed those things. They are told they never open up, they are toxic they shouldn’t be acting x,y,z and they should be more like girls.
What you are saying is when all thr fallout occurs then they get help. You are fixing a problem when their could be a solution before it becomes a problem.
Is that the goal of girl scouts, though?
I don’t think so.
What are you trying to say? I don’t know that much about Scouting in the U.S. At least in Germany we didn’t have this gender divide in scouting, but as GSUSA were founded after the BSA I suspect that their goal was to provide scouting for girls because they couldn’t join BSA.
The other guy said men can’t have man-only spaces, referring to Boy Scouts in contrast to Girl Scouts, and you said that Boy Scouts isn’t supposed to be a safe space to explore gender identity or emotions. If Girl Scouts isn’t that kind of thing either, then that sounds like you think men only get to have that kind of man-only space, while women can have whatever.
As a man, if the only man-only spaces available were about gender identity or emotions, I’d probably go to neither. The former because I’m fully comfortable as a man (and the use of the term “gender identity” there implies it’s more for trans people,) and the latter because I don’t have significant issues with my emotions. Frankly, I don’t really mind that most of the clubs and events that interest me are co-ed, but if there was a recurring women-only Minecraft party or something and there was never one for men, I’d be upset about that.
It would be great if there was mens clubs to just hang out, drink, talk, play games things like that. In fact there was and they were HUGE but men aren’t allowed them now.
It would be great if boys could have that. Almost like a girls scouts but for boys.
The issue is that these spaces are often prime trolling grounds, and you end up having the same discussions over and over until the honest posters move on and only trolls are left.
Which is why the heavily moderated menslib sub on Reddit was so great, because they didn’t put up with that BS.
Counterpoint - men need to be less hung up on gender.
There’s plenty of liberal spaces for people even if not exclusively for men.
As a guy, I don’t need a sign outside saying “Open for men” to know I can go into a store, just “Open” suffices.
While there are aspects of my life that are informed by my biology and its social construct, it’s one of the least defining aspects of who I am as a person. I don’t need it specially recognized.
I’d much rather live in a world where there’s spaces for “people who like RPGs and fantasy” or “people who like tech” over “people who identify as male.” I have a ton in common with the former two, irrespective of gender identities, and very little in common with the latter other than fairly superficial things.
“Hey, pee standing up? Me too! We have so much in common we should be friends. Oh, you want to meet up at the bar to watch the latest hockey game? Yeah, that sounds…fun…”
The very idea of a “liberal space for men” is antithetical to my sense of liberalism. We should be liberated from arbitrary notions of identity, not reinforced into them.
Surely this is intersectional though right? Not all men are the same or have the same experience of political issues. I can see how straight white cis men might feel like these spaces aren’t for them. But queer men might feel differently about this. Black men also.
Also if you feel like existing spaces aren’t for you, then free to create your own spaces. There’s nothing holding you back.
Nearly all leftist spaces welcome straight white cis men. Anti-feminists are not welcome.
And I don’t like how sparse the data points are but they went with a wobbly interpolated curve anyway.
Oh good, I’m better than the average man in something.
Sad that the bar is so low though
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Looks like I need to move to the UK
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So what this is saying is that women are going to save our collective asses.
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I think what’s more interesting from those charts isn’t just the divergence between genders - it’s that (with the obvious exception of S Korea - what on earth is going on in that country??) men’s attitudes have slightly trended more conservative whereas women’s attitudes have radically changed to more liberal.
From what little I know it has to do with them coming from a more conservative point in recent history. But women are fast tracking feminism. Men never got the message and still expected their wife to do the traditional stuff so women stopped marrying.
So now there’s a big reactionary movement.
Fuck them for calling the left liberal. Liberals are the people who sell schools, hospitals, and social services to the lowest bidding private enterprise. A solidly right wing ideology that puts profit over people.
Perpetuates the false dichotomy of a linear political spectrum of either liberal or conservative and that in and of itself is one of the reasons for these trends. Liberalism has nothing to offer men. Leftism does.
You might as well be asking men how much they are willing to sacrifice for others vs. look after their own interests. When the inequality gap widens and the majority live below average economically, don’t you think people will tend to become more selfish? That’s all these charts show.
Conservatism is essentially synonymous with patriarchy and on a very shallow level, it’s easy to see how men would choose that over the status quo. That will surely be better for men than this slow attrition of status that comes with ever increasing wealth concentration. This isn’t true but it is an obvious conclusion.
The real question, which this survey completely ignores, conveniently, is what we should all be doing together to better the status quo for all. Because I believe almost everyone except a small and shrinking fraction agrees that current trends are not working for anyone.
Perpetuates the false dichotomy of a linear political spectrum of either liberal or conservative and that in and of itself is one of the reasons for these trends
the graph explicitly takes 1 dimension of the spectrum to look at it in isolation. This is exactly what single graphs do best.
which this survey completely ignores, conveniently
have you looked at the source of the graph?
I hate simple 1 dimensional representations of politics. I’m not a conservative, and as a Mutualist, I also am not a Liberal.
That’s cool. I’m also a Mutant.
This data is poorly presented and unclear. It may well have some really useful insights, but it’s definitely not beautiful.
This is an opinion piece they are really really reaching with.
Conservatives have been running this for a few days now but it just doesn’t add up. At least for the US it flies in the face of all published polling, including what they claim as sources. Unless you look at Gen Z men skewing independent and take that as them becoming more conservative because you only see the political spectrum as D/I/M.
But that’s not what being an independent means. It isn’t a party. It’s literally not having a party.
I forgot to add, there’s also the Roe effect. The overturning of Roe has pushed women left in the US.
This is only going to increase as men watch their quality of life continue to degrade, while they get ignored at best and blamed for everything at worse. Many men can barely afford to live, let alone even think of the joys of previous generations such as home ownership, having a family, or travelling.
Meanwhile the news is full of victory after victory for women, so of course they’re going to support the status quo more.
Conservatism grows when people are struggling.
Poor oppressed men. The fact that their side piece can’t get an abortion anymore must really get them down.
This. This is exactly why this stupid gap exists, because of shitty people like you.
“Treat everyone equally” except men fuck them apparently.
You’re assuming a lot things there bubba.
You were pretty clear in your comment bro. Did you mean something else and it came out wrong?
Have you considered not being a hateful piece of shit. People like you are why the blue graphs have the direction they have. You would do well to consider whether declaring half the population as evil for no other reason than their gender, can ever lead to a successful result.
There certainly is a hateful piece of shit in this thread, but it’s not me.
But I’m sure if you just keep externalizing instead of working on yourself, things will magically fix themselves for you!
What have i said to deserve your hostile response to me previously? You derided and mocked me simply for sharing how i feel on the issue, when i never said anything negative about women.
Leftism is not the status quo in the slightest. Men currently are far more privledged than women.
Many men can barely afford to live, let alone even think of the joys of previous generations such as home ownership, having a family, or travelling.
Ahh yes, because houses are cheaper for women, obviously. /s
This has nothing to do with the person being a man or woman.
Meanwhile the news is full of victory after victory for women, so of course they’re going to support the status quo more.
That “victory after victory” is in large part just women catching up to existing men’s rights.
Just today there was a story on the front page of a male domestic abuse survivor who tried to start up a shelter for men, who eventually killed himself because he got treated like shit for it.
Now compare that to resources allocated for women victims of domestic abuse.
1 in 4 women are victims of it, while 1 in 6 men are so its not like its not a huge issue for us either. We went from a society that didnt treat abuse as an issue for anyone to one that has, yet having nothing to support us is “catching up” in your books?
Remember that woman who murdered her husband and got probation for it? She stabbed him 100+ times! It happened like a week ago too. I’d consider that a win for women being able to murder people, a loss for men, and a loss for that judge.
Exactly. More lenient sentencing is definitely part of female privilege.
Oh wait, no, I mean part of the horrible misogynist practice of “putting women on a pedestal”, of course. Gotta make sure that we frame all of the privilege that being a woman brings as actually just more evidence of how bad men are!
Then why arent feminists protesting for more prison time?
Victory for women? Like how they are losing their reproductive rights and going to jail for miscarriages in America?
Maybe the fact that conservative governments erode the rights of women?
I think that’s probably the biggest driver the last 10 years.
A FUCKTONNE of women I know became a hell of a lot less conservative when Roe Vs Wade was overturned.
Maybe the fact that conservative governments erode the rights of women?
Do they really? I know about stuff in the US, but what about the other countries. At least for Germany I can say that in the last 10 years I can’t really recall anything where the government tried to worsen women’s rights.
Compared to America, most conservative German politicians are damn near moderates.
I know for a fact that they would be called ‘damn libruhls’ by nearly every republicunt they shared their policy ideals with.
It’s so ridiculous, last year some politicians from the CSU visited De Santis. They regularly copy talking points from the US, which make absolutely no sense. They even tried the “drag queens are groomers” thing, but it didn’t catch on. Next they’ll probably try to ban books or some other bullshit like that.
Herdprämie.
The constitutional court axed the whole thing because it’s outside of the jurisdiction of the federation, Bavaria, and only Bavaria then went ahead and made it state law. They also consistently score worst when it comes to access to abortions.
That’s the CSU though, the CDU had lots of high-ranking women at that time which explains why they weren’t pushing things into that direction. And the whole republic ridiculed vdL for trying to get rid of Vatertag, rightly so.
Yeah, I remember that, but I wouldn’t call that worsening women’s rights, it was something completely optional and if at all only highlighted existing sexism. It was more or less a susidy for families that didn’t sent their kids to kindergarten, the law didn’t state which parent had to take care of the children or anything like that. There was criticism that children wouldn’t grow up around other children and that it would hold women back in their careers because it would most likely be the mother who stays at home, but that’s not the fault of the law. And similar programs exist in Norway, Sweden and Denmark, and generally people consider those countries as progressive.
Regarding abortions one law making it hard to access was the ridiculous § 219a StGB and that was abolished in 2022. The other problem is that doctors can’t be forced to perform abortions. The problem in general here is religious groups.
A FUCKTONNE of women I know became a hell of a lot less conservative when Roe Vs Wade was overturned.
Now if only they would vote like it…
Republicans also gained support from a higher share of women compared with previous elections: 48% of women voters cast ballots for GOP candidates in 2022 while 51% favored Democrats. In 2018, 40% voted for Republicans while 58% supported Democrats.
For further context, the Dobbs decision was June 2022…
Oh boy liberal vs conservative, what a wide variety of political opinion allowed for by the “financial times”
Yes, these graphs don’t many any sense other than generating clicks.
I don’t think they use the definition of liberal that you think they’re using.
They’re not, this is the traditional polling version of liberal vs. conservative — the one that everyone who is not terminally online uses and can understand as it has been around for over a century.
I really don’t like that the graphs aren’t across the same period of time.
I didn’t notice until you pointed it out. Because why wouldn’t they be??
I don’t know about beautiful data. That’s scary data :/
