Important clarification/FAQ
I am not calling to coddle or excuse the behavior of bigoted men in any way!
I am calling to be kind and understanding to young men (often ages 10-20) who are very manipulable and succeptible to the massive anti feminist propaganda machine. Hope this clarifies that very important distinction. :)
Very good comments that express key points:
- Detailed summary of the situation if you’re wondering what’s going on
- The rhetorical value of the bear hypothetical and what this means for you
- One example of why the long-term rhetorical value of the hypothetical is poor, in the context of intersectionality
- What does disenfranchisement mean in this context?
- The importance of not asking women to tone down their expressions of fear and frustration
- “But why can’t they just say it nicely?”
- The importance of participation in kindness toward young men, specifically outside the context of people speaking their experiences
Edit: This post has now been removed and restored twice. I want to encourage you all:
Be decent to one another
I think this post is a valuable thing given the current state of the Fediverse, please don’t fuck it up for us by being toxic in the comments.
OK, seriously, I thought I’ve spent enough free time on Lemmy telling you to watch Barbie here for some of you here to, you know, actually watch Barbie.
So let me be clear: it is ultimately the Barbies’ complete disregard for the Kens’ feelings that led to the Kens being poisoned by the idea of the Patriarchy and all the subsequent mess in Barbieland, so way ahead of you on 2, to reiterate, what the Kens did was wrong, but you have got to take a nuanced approach to these things.
Also, on 1, all I said was that unlike the meme I feel that bears are terrifying, and then some weirdo came out of the woodwork and got really angry and start talking over me and calling me a dumbass and I was making it all about me somehow. The irony was so palpable I was at a loss for words.
nuance:
What? Men are going to adopt shitty beliefs and exercise their privilege no matter what and nothing can be done about it. /s
The gamification of social media means any attempt to draw a bright line of social conduct will just end in people deploying that rule in the most cynical context.
“Believe all women” means we’re going to slap generic women’s faces in our Avis and lie out our asses.
“Let people enjoy things” means reframing the most deplorable and nakedly hostile conduct as some kind of secret fetish you have to support.
“Protect Kids” means posting baby pictures under every comment and saying “This is who you’re talking to”.
“Act like an adult” means getting CP in your DMs.
When its all a fucking game and you score points by causing other people mental anguish, the only thing any sane healthy person can do is log off, touch grass, and get as far away from the hellscape that is social media as possible.
That’s an interesting perspective. They would say the same thing about “touching grass” when tv became popular. The scenarios you describe are more extreme versions of beaver and butthole are corrupting your kids.
They would say the same thing about “touching grass” when tv became popular.
They’d be right. TV absolutely rots your perception of the outside world. I can’t count the number of elderly people who have become shut-ins, thanks to the continuous bombardment of Sinclair Media crime-blotter local news coverage. People ingest too much of this crap and suddenly they’re too terrified to leave their homes.
The scenarios you describe are more extreme versions of beaver and butthole are corrupting your kids.
The Christ-o-fascists who lost their shit over MTV didn’t want kids to stop watching TV entirely. They just wanted the kids to watch religious broadcasts instead.
Growing up with them I can certifiably say you’re wrong. As a result I was out in the world doing things I look back on and think were fucking insane.
Ever wonder how you survived? I certainly do
I know for the most part I was always trying to be conservative with my friends and though we were taking risks I would try to draw the line somewhere. I think that helped but a lot of the time I was encouraging it too. Otherwise just dumb luck.
I mean the phenomenon of televangelists and televangelical megachurch pastors that spread their messages and propaganda through the same avenues as conventional media is a pretty like, well documented thing, I’d say. Tune into AM radio or cable TV and you can probably still peep some of them doing their thing. I don’t think their point is necessarily invalid, but I also think there’s more of like a happy medium between, watching TV all day and going outside and bumming around town as a latchkey kid and frying your brain on spice in the back of a much older guy’s car, or like. Robbing a low rent low security corner store on the edge of town.
Could someone explain number 2 to me? A lot of big words, and I have trouble to understand what it’s trying to say.
It’s claiming that pushing men out of civilized communities, spaces and conversations ultimately leads to them embracing more accepting alt-right ideologies and movements.
Thank you!
Follow up question: What would be a practical example on how to achieve this? To not push men out of civilized communities that is.
I think it has to happen in person.
At the heart of this is the unfortunate fact that nuance is lost in online discussion. The reason that the bear scenario is so notable is it is so polarising. “yes! That’s how I feel!” vs “you’re reducing me to a threat”
An honest and direct conversation between two peers is far more likely to have a lasting effect. Hearing what the lived experience is directly from the person who’s experiencing it is far, far more more compelling than the stark bear statement.
I don’t feel unsafe most of the time. But I have felt unsafe and vulnerable before. Thus when a female colleague told me about being followed by a guy in a park while walking her dog, and feeling torn between straight running away and keeping her pet safe, it resonated directly with me. I could see her reliving the experience and see her distress. She shouldn’t have to go through that. It’s not fair.
That conversation resonated far more completely than the bear tweet.
I don’t even think it has to be like, in person, necessarily, I just think it needs to be engaged with in good faith outside of like, the framing of the conversation as being spurned on by some sort of hypothetical, or being spurned on without like. Reportage between two people, without a relationship there pre-established. I’ve definitely had compelling conversations online, it’s just that it happens so often to be kind of, in spite of the larger machine they took place inside of.
The reason I say in person is because if the amount of information which is transmitted via direct conversation is orders of magnitude higher than through eye contact, tone, language and body language.
If you and I were talking right now, I could maintain eye contact, rotate my shoulders so I face you, position my head in a way that says I’m listening, use my voice to indicate that I’m contrite, or uncomfortable, or supportive.
It can be excruciatingly uncomfortable for people who are used to having virtual tools abstract away the hard parts of interaction. But that’s exactly what (in this case) women are saying they feel. They feel, in the real world, they’re not safe. To me, the weight of that comes from a direct interaction rather than a news article or twitter post.
My opinion etc
Let us talk, dont immediately shut us up if we aren’t actively harming the discussion, let men know that their feelings are valid too but that they dont overshadow others feelings (jumping straight to that second half is NOT helpful). Let memes like this one exist without deleting them for lumping them in with the angry assholes
👆👆🗣️🗣️
It blames women who express their fear of being scared of men for the violence commited by men against women
I think your post is exactly what is criticized by OP. In the first part of the post it is explicitly stated men should not talk over the fear of women. A message like yours seems to blame people just because they criticize the way of discussion in some places. I think it is obvious that men are influenced in a possible negative way, when they are always seen as danger. At least for me it probably contributed to my low self esteem, especially in all sex/gender related topics. I think, we as men do so much harm, I don’t want to take part in this. But i took it to the extreme, so I was ashamed of everything sexual about me. But as OP said, all of this doesn’t invalidate the feeling of any woman. But for example this situation here is not governed by fear, still it seems you can’t discuss the social effects of this sentiment “against” man, without discrediting the other side. Sure, violence done mainly to women is the most important topic. But if men always get portrayed as danger, I can understand some are open to other, more misogynist worldviews.
Gr8 b8 m8
It’s a lot easier to identify with the bad guys if you’re assumed to be a bad guy.
“Women think I’m more dangerous than a bear? What the hell? I never did anything”
Followed by
“hey what this guy on YouTube says is true, women sexualise themselves, I mean look at instagram. This isn’t my problem,.”
I know this is a bit of an over simplification but thought 1 is what I thought.
I’m a bit older, tho and my second thought was - “but ive never felt unsafe alone with a woman, definitely have felt unsafe around some men.”
Young men are much more likely to be non-conforming to sexist cultural/gender norms and stereotypes, which often leads to them being ostracized more by general society and makes it easier for grifters (like manosphere influencers) to take ahold of them and radicalize them with alt-right and/or extremely misogynistic beliefs.
There are plenty of amazing feminist role models, but the right’s form of propoganda is so much more enticing because it tells you that everyone else is the problem and you’re superior to others, rather than ask you to give a shot at understanding reality like leftist influences do. That goes with anything on the right, fascists are a lot more motivating and good at gaining/rallying radical supporters because it’s so much easier to get people on your side if you’re allowed to lie about everything. So naturally, impressionable – and extremely vulnerable and emotionally volatile – young men gravitate towards the extreme negative influences due to how our society and education is poorly set up to prevent that.
And in this case how sexism and toxic masculinity is deeply ingrained into our society that so many of these young men are made to feel like they’re “not real men” by those around them, it really pushes them towards this even more. Rather than reject the idea of a “real man” or a “real woman”, they embrace them even more and convince themselves that they are the realest men, and OTHERS are pathetic.
Ah! Doublethink!
/s
i know ur meming but it’s good to know what doublethink is and how this is not that :)
You are all arguing about bears, but I am over here day dreaming
Uhhhhhhh…what a horrible day to be literate
yeah, he spelled exquisite wrong, 0/10 would not read again
Nothing like some vintage copy pasta to sear your brain
Ah yes what a fun meme, so much haha’s were had.
There is zero quality control here. I would rather see spam ads leading to shady websites than political grandstanding and ragebait at this point. At least this post isn’t being intentionally divisive.
I would love to purge this meme, and all of it’s derivates out of my feed.
This whole thing is completely blown out of proportion. The fact that young disenfranchised men are getting upset that women they don’t know are choosing a bear over them says that they are taking it personally when it’s not.
If you’re a young man, and the people around you have decided they would rather choose the bear over you, that’s a sign that you need to sit down and take a hard look at yourself about why they would do that. What have you done that would make them decide that. And if you extend that feeling to random women that you don’t know, then you need to sit down and take a hard look at yourself why you feel that way. You don’t know the lived experience of random women. You don’t know why they would choose certain death over you. Taking it personally only shows your immaturity. You can’t control how other people feel. You can only control yourself. If you want to understand why women around you would choose the bear, maybe try asking them nicely and actually listen. Empathy works both ways. Showing some will encourage people to reciprocate.
That would be cool and all if women reciprocated and listened to men for once.
One of the ways in which some men radicalize is through support towards women that is not appreciated nor reciprocated. Something like “duh, if you didn’t support us we’d call you the problem”.
Of course this gets personal. If women expect men to listen, could they please listen for once? I’m sure they’d get a lot of insights behind a lot of male behaviors, and particularly why we are upset and why some men turn aggressive and hostile and follow rapists and douchebags.
Want insights on abusive behaviors and how to prevent them? The answers are there. Heck, threads under this post contain the true answers. Listen.
You are not owed reciprocation. You are not owed appreciation. No one is asking you to listen to them. You’ve taken it upon yourself to respond to a woman making a general statement that’s not directed at you. You made that choice.
It’s not the responsibility of women to ensure that you do not become radicalized. You have to take ownership of your own life and the choices that you make. That includes the choice to become aggressive, or hostile, or to become a rapist. Women don’t make you do those things. You decide to do those things, no matter how you try to justify it. The choice is yours alone.
And women are not owed being listened to and cared for, exactly.
We do it not because we owe something to each other, but because we’re empathetic human beings able to listen and care for the discourse that is not about us. But we too have something to say, and it is directly relevant to the substance of the conversation.
And it gets more and more frustrating to see many women venting their anger without actually trying to listen up and see the other side of their story, gaining insights that are useful in combating the very issue they complain about. The solutions are there. It’s just that no one actually cares for them.
Nothing good comes from a discourse when one relevant side is shushed every time they speak up. And this is the case.
Now, what is more important to you - venting anger and shifting blame? Or listening in search of insights?
You want someone to listen to you? You want “respect”? You have to give it first. That’s how life works. You can either go around being respectful to other people, and if it’s reciprocated then great but if not then you move on. Or you can go around being disrespectful to everyone until you get respect first, and people will rightfully treat you the same way.
Women are not venting to you. They are just venting. You are choosing to inject yourself into the conversation and demand that they listen to you first. You’re demanding that they accept your solutions without question. And then you wonder why no one wants to listen to you. If you’re unwilling to see that, that’s your problem.
And that’s what men in the feminist conversations normally do - listen and care and respect. I am no exception. (By the way, the reciprocity on that barely ever comes, but that’s a topic for another conversation)
But this post isn’t just a vent. Would it be correct for me to publicly ask: “would you rather be alone in a forest with a bear or a black person”?
Those questions contain a simple subtext, a comparison of men to dangerous animals, irrespective of any nuance, which is a form of attack on a social group. And I doubt someone just got interested in stats on what women would choose. This is an act of, at best, rude behavior, and at worst, an active hostility, and men see it as such.
This is not a singular case by any means, and it continuously reiterates in one form or the other.
And that’s where we have to interject.
would you rather be alone in a forest with a bear or a black person”
Stop comparing yourself to black men. This isn’t about race.
And that’s what men in the feminist conversations normally do - listen and care and respect. I am no exception.
Yeah, except…
If women expect men to listen, could they please listen for once?
You don’t want to listen. You’re just waiting for your turn to talk.
a comparison of men to dangerous animals, irrespective of any nuance, which is a form of attack on a social group.
Again, you are purposely putting yourself in that group and getting offended by it. You are not being oppressed just because someone who doesn’t even know you exist would rather not be alone with you.
And that’s where we have to interject.
Which is why women are choosing the bear. Unfortunately you don’t seem to get that. You don’t have to interject, because it’s not about you.
Why should I not compare? Both are immutable traits people are born with, and both may serve as a basis for discrimination.
The single time men massively interject to stand up for themselves is immediately claimed as a hostile hijacking and an unwillingness to listen.
No, we do listen. But that doesn’t mean we will seal our mouths when we are blatantly attacked.
Purposefully putting myself to what group? Memes? This is not some obscure radfem space, this is a general purpose Internet place. And what’s happening here is not okay.
Nothing good comes from a discourse when one relevant side is shushed every time they speak up. And this is the case.
I mean I think it’s a pretty mutual like, set of actions that happens as a result of the initial framing of the conversation being like a stupid absurd obvious ragebait hypothetical more than like, a systematic failing in our society. Or, rather, I think the systematic failing of society is that these conversations are only allowed to come about, to blow up, out of those sorts of bad faith framings, rather than happening more naturally on even ground. I think that’s the root cause, which I think affects both people groups, rather than it just being like a cultural failing that you might attribute to. I dunno, something else, something not as good as that.
Undoubtedly, the original hypothetical is a ragebait - but it truly succeeds at forming people’s opinions, which is something that can’t be ignored when groups of people are attacked.
I’d much rather not have those hypotheticals at all, indeed, and have neutral and positive talks.
If all women listened to men for once?
Someone come out and tell me I’m on a Poe’s law hidden camera show.
It’s not certain death. Bears are predictable, you can easily scare a bear away or play dead. Random men are unpredictable. As a man, I would much rather ruin into a beat than some sketchy dude who wants to rob me or wear my skin as a coat.
But that’s just it. It’s not about the bear. It was never about the bear. It’s about women not trusting unknown men, and the men who get offended by that. Anyone that insists on predicting what the bear would do, or wants to discuss statistics of bear attacks, is missing the point. It’s distracting away from the actual conversation.
Women have the right to feel uncomfortable around unknown men. Men have the right to feel hurt by that sentiment. But it’s not the responsibility of women to coddle the men and make them feel better. The men need to understand that they can only control themselves. Part of controlling themselves is to empathize with women and try to understand why they would choose the bear. Not get upset that a random woman doesn’t want to be alone with them. Not proclaim they’d also choose the bear because they don’t want to be alone with some sketchy man. Not convince them that the bear is statistically more dangerous. Just simply listen and try to understand. That’s all. When you learn to control yourself and empathize, you’ll find others that will do the same. And then maybe some of those women will choose you over the bear…
Women have the right to feel uncomfortable around unknown men.
I guess
Men have the right to feel hurt by that sentiment.
Fair enough.
But it’s not the responsibility of women to coddle the men and make them feel better.
Okay, I’m following
The men need to understand that they can only control themselves. Part of controlling themselves is to empathize with women and try to understand why they would choose the bear.
Whoa whoa wait, so it is the responsibility of men to coddle the women and make them feel better?
Choosing the bear is stupid and irrational. But isn’t it on women to stop being irrational, rather than on men to make them feel comfortable enough to make the rational choice?
Or, alternatively, if it’s on men to make women feel comfortable, then isn’t it women’s responsibility to not cause men to feel hurt?
You can’t have it both ways. Either each gender has a right to be irrational and needs to figure their own shit out, or each gender has a responsibility to help the other feel better about gender relations. What you wrote is “men have a problem? Men need to fix it. Women have a problem? Men also need to fix it.”
“Just remember, men: under no circumstances are women ever wrong. Every problem is caused by you and must be fixed by you.”
Way to purposely misinterpret what I said.
How are women “wrong” about feeling uncomfortable around unknown men? How are women asking you to fix that problem? None of what you just said is actually happening. Stop creating a fantasy where you’re perfect and it’s everyone else who has a problem.
I feel uncomfortable around unknown women 🤷♂️
That’s fine. No one is forcing you to be around unknown women. And those women aren’t going to be offended that you don’t want to be around them. Those woman aren’t going to call you completely irrational for choosing not to be around them. Those women aren’t going to demand that you empathize with them. You are free to feel however you want.
That’s pretty dismissive. No one is forcing women to be around unknown men then.
Then why is this post filled with men upset that unknown women don’t want to be alone with them?
You tell me. People aren’t forced to be around unknown people. Ever. According to you.
I’m sure those unknown women would think I’m silly for just wanting to be in a room with people who aren’t going to sexually harass me.
This meme is based AF
no u ❤️
shitty people are just shitty, gender has nothing to do with it. Women and men are both capable of being abusers.
Man…my BIL with his baby-mama/ex-fiance. I used to work with her (that’s where they met, we all worked together at the time).
She’s so nice and bubbly on the surface but holy shit there’s a demon under that veneer and I’ve met it. That manipulative demon is how she became baby-mama after she became ex-fiance. But he puts up with it so he can keep seeing his kid and hopefully shield him from it ~half the time.
Me likey
It’s true that nuance does indeed often get lost in online debates, so I appreciate you for making this post.
thanks! i hope this format can catch on im kind of proud of it lol
keep doing it and it probably will to be honest.
Its a fun format, I like it :)
If I were stuck in the forest with a bear and another person, I’d try to gauge if I can run faster than the other person. If not, I’ll try to see if I can hit their knee caps with something. But seriously, the problem with that hypothetical situation is there’s nothing actionable, you’re either for or against, no chance of improvement. On the other hand, you shouldn’t take things personally. We all just probably wish there are things we can do to improve.
Social media doesn’t often reward kindness, but that’s what is needed. Show kindness to young men, when you can. They need better guidance.
Needing to be rewarded in order to act is a property of children
You forget that the internet is indeed full of actual children
Many people conflate kindness with weakness, however, in reality it is the opposite. It is easier to tear someone down, than to build something. The tendency to tear other people down comes from a need to feel higher in the social pecking order which they cannot attain with their lack of ability.
So much this. ❤️ But it’s tough.
I am making this post coming out of a comment section where women expressing their most personal and horrific experiences are getting majority downvotes, while men are yapping on and on about “the problem with feminism these days” over them and getting no shortage of likes. It’s frankly disturbing to witness.
I am trying to be kind with this (and all) posts because I recognize it is what is needed. But I also fully understand the plight of other women who get frustrated or even lash out.
Take a deep breath. Listen to one another. Be kind.
