Let’s focus on what’s going on now, shall we? Whatever happened before was what happened before. What is happening now will continue to happen if you spin info this way. Has there been any other party involved in funding? Has any of funding been included with a multitude of other items in a bill? Let’s hear the whole story of every year - not just this cherry-picking intended to make the Democrats in Congress responsible for today’s storm trouper ICE tactics.
If the Democrats in Congress don’t want to be held responsible for today’s storm trouper ICE tactics, then maybe they shouldn’t keep increasing funding to ICE, and training them to act like Storm Troupers.
I like how providing evidence that the Democrats don’t even deny is “spinning info”
What happens now is a result of what came before. Ignoring history only makes you blind, it does not do you any good. This “lets focus on the now” line I see some of you oafs expouse only helps to shield fascists.
This “lets focus on the now” line I see some of you oafs expouse only helps to shield fascists.
It’s also what Democrats LOVE to do when finally elected.
Liberals just go through life like goldfish, just vibing in the moment.
Lets not bicker and argue about who killed who
How is anyone supposed to make an informed decision without considering past events? Ignore cause and effect?
Whatever happened before was what happened before.
I means this is MAGA level critical thinking.
Let’s focus on what’s going on now, shall we? Whatever happened before was what happened before. What is happening now will continue to happen if you spin info this way
You, 30 april 1945, after Donitz was appointed president
Unfortunately, ICE does a lot of things other than being Trump’s personal paramilitary force. Either we can continue to fund it, but at a reduced level, or we need to replace it. Honestly we probably need to replace it at this point, because ICE has such a bad reputation that good people will be discouraged from taking a job there.
We could just dismantile it completely, and not have to fund it at all.
Or we could simply not abduct and terrorize immigrants for literally no reason (beyond racism).
we didnt have ICE at all until 2003, and we seemed to have been fine. Were we like-- living in caves and engaging in canibalism in 2003? I dont think we were.
Was the country better or worse off before 2003? …Better right? By a lot. So who cares if people are discouraged from taking a job at ICE. If they are that gives me a ray of hope that some Americans are fundamentally decent people.
Germany still prosecutes people who guarded their concentration camps. That’s what should happen to every single member of ICE. They knew.
Well yes, but those were blue collar workers, not scientists and administration.
The US funded border patrol since 2003? Omg, I don’t believe it. wtf is this post supposed to mean? Blame Democrats? This post is retarded. Just more rage bait. The shit that is going on now never existed before. I blame every American that voted for that orange shit or didn’t vote at all because they think Democrats are just as bad. Everyone who doesn’t fucking care about making things better or just too self centered to give a shit about the future. Everyone that gave up because fuck it. Just let it burn. This is fine. The end of humanity is coming soon enough, but the world will heal after we are gone.
The US funded border patrol since 2003? Omg, I don’t believe it. wtf is this post supposed to mean? Blame Democrats? This post is removed.
wow this post got you scratched.
ableist r-word slur. Selective history, incurious about history and self-absorbed. You’re fucking pathetic.
I blame every American that voted for that orange shit or didn’t vote at all because they think Democrats are just as bad.
To the outside world, they are both just as bad. To the domestic, the only difference is how it affects white people. As marginalized communities always have it really shit under both parties.
Everyone who doesn’t fucking care about making things better or just too self centered to give a shit about the future.
No, you liberals only give a shit about YOUR OWN FUTURE and NOBODY ELSE’S. You lot are the definition of a self-centered ego.
Everyone that gave up because fuck it. Just let it burn. This is fine. The end of humanity is coming soon enough, but the world will heal after we are gone.
Yes, let Amerika burn, that is good actually. But it won’t be the end of humanity then, it’ll be what saves it. The world will indeed heal when you lot are gone.
🥈
ICE was formed in 2003.
Where you even born then? The same agency existed before 2003. That was just a name change. After 2001, everything changed. But it was nothing like what exists now. I’d like to see how you guys are doing anything to help humanity and not further it’s destruction. I agree most/all politicians are are selfish assholes. Most of humanity probably deserves to die off. Any number of man made disasters are ready to make that happen. The USA is already dying. China will likely be next. But just saying fuck Democrats is pointless. What does “join the revolution” actually mean? Just sow more chaos?
Of course this is the comment you respond to you monumental coward
China will likely be next
Lol cope. Sorry, but China is not on the verge of collapse, it actually has competent leadership and an educated population that isn’t poisoned by the insane individualist colonialist philosophy that lies at the root of the mind of people like you and the other average half-wits that make up the political base of the US.
I meant China will be next to be the dominant power. This was the last comment on the thread. Didn’t mean to poke you.
Where you even born then?
Yes, I talked about it elsewhere in this post: https://crazypeople.online/comment/11609820
The same agency existed before 2003. That was just a name change.
So the meme should have gone back further and said Immigration and Naturalization Service, U.S. Customs Service and assorted other government agencies? Would that be good enough for you?
After 2001, everything changed.
Yes, I know. Americans decided to allow unprecedented surveillance and militarization in exchange for maintaining their way of life.
But it was nothing like what exists now.
My mistake, I must have imagined Guantanamo.
I’d like to see how you guys are doing anything to help humanity and not further it’s destruction. I agree most/all politicians are are selfish assholes. Most of humanity probably deserves to die off. Any number of man made disasters are ready to make that happen. The USA is already dying. China will likely be next. But just saying fuck Democrats is pointless.
America is the only so- called liberal democracy where criticism of the political establishment is treated like an existential threat to humanity. Free to use slurs but not to dream of a better world, I guess?
What does “join the revolution” actually mean? Just sow more chaos?
I’m sorry you’re having such a rough time processing the immense violence happing within your country. However, my comment was “ICE was formed in 2003”. If that statement, providing a possible reason that year was chosen in the meme, is unbottling all these feelings, I’d like to suggest that it isn’t really my comment that is the problem.
America is the only so- called liberal democracy where criticism of the political establishment is treated like an existential threat to humanity.
The UK is imprisoning nans for holding up signs saying they support Palestine Action.
That’s a fair comment, I wasn’t specific enough in what I meant. I don’t think it’s unusual for the state to suppress dissidents. That’s what states do, after all!
I know the internet isn’t real but the only exposure I have to americans is online, and they seem to think that people criticising the democrats are russian agents. Every day americans are so eager to suppress criticism and turn on each other, in service of maintaining the status quo.
Why though? You don’t even need to look beyond the comfort zone of imperialist states to see that electoral democracy can exist in places where people are free to form new parties and coalitions when the existing are not pleasing to anyone. Take the UK for example!
I’m not suggesting more parties are going to stop america from continuing to harm the rest of the world and their people at home. I’m just baffled by the idea that anything but uncritical support of one of the two teams you get to pick from is anti democracy. I think getting over that hurdle is the first step to solidarity and class consciousness.
I am no fan of the us and I live here. Ive hated politics my whole life. I totally get the hatred of America. I would leave if I could. And there are pockets of resistance here and I do what I can to support that even if it means voting democrat. I have to believe there is still a chance.
I mean this with kindness: my comment is directed only to the people who display the behavior I mention.
Oh, yeah, the US ideological state apparatus is extremely powerful.
I’m reminded of a joke:
A KGB spy and a CIA agent meet up in a bar for a friendly drink. “I have to admit, I’m always so impressed by Soviet propaganda. You really know how to get people worked up,” the CIA agent says. “Thank you,” the KGB says. “We do our best but truly, it’s nothing compared to American propaganda. Your people believe everything your state media tells them.” The CIA agent drops his drink in shock and disgust. “Thank you friend, but you must be confused… There’s no propaganda in America.”
Denmark jailed a teenage girl for commenting “yaaasss 😍” on a Facebook post sharing an article about Iran firing missiles at Israel.
The same problems always existing before 2003 which is my point. And every year gets worse. Every country gets worse. Every day the future gets worse and all you guys do is blame someone else. Blaming everyone else, minorities/immigrants is what got is here. Doesnt solve anything.
Yes, problems with borders existed before 2003. But this image is about Democrat support of ICE specifically.
What type of criticism is allowed?
I don’t disagree with the criticism. The only thing i dislike is the implication to that “there are no good choices” and we should just give up. That’s how the facists win. I also thought the meme was dumb. But tbh I was drunk. I am also new to this platform, so sorry if I fucked up the rules. It still amazed that anyone even read a comment from a noob and took the time to reply.
I don’t think anyone is saying there are no good choices and to just give up.
If you can’t talk about what’s wrong, you can’t fix it.
I want to start this off by saying I appreciate that you seem to be open to correction and that you respect the community and its rules. 99.9% of the time when someone, especially from another instance, suddenly appears here to defend Democrats or the false dichotomy binary system of US politics, they are trolls commenting in bad faith and don’t deserve anything less than comment removal. If you genuinely do not fall into that category, then there are plenty of people here who are more than happy to discuss any of this with you, noob-ness not being a factor at all.
That said, I think you do have some brainworms regarding electoralism that you would do well to excise. Anyone who grew up in western (especially US) “culture” is going to have some brainworms, as it’s unavoidable when you’re saturated by propaganda from birth as USians are. I just want to be clear that saying you have brainworms is not an insult to your character. What does speak to the health of a person’s character is whether or not they’re willing to recognize, examine, and rectify those brainworms.
The only thing i dislike is the implication to that “there are no good choices” and we should just give up
A few things to unpack here. First of all, no one is saying there are no good choices and definitely no one is saying “we should just give up.” You are the one who seems to have that sort of defeatist attitude (though it looks like you’re struggling to come to terms with that) when you say things like “Most of humanity probably deserves to die off,” which is an ecofascist-aligning position. And even “every year gets worse. Every country gets worse,” is a very defeatist (and incorrect) thing to say, as it totally disregards the gigantic strides that socialist countries have made towards the betterment of humankind.
More specifically on the Democrats and “no good choices” thing, we would say that Democrats are not a good choice and literally no better of a choice than a Republican because both of those parties serve the interests of the ruling class, they are both parts of the same machine whose purpose is to suppress the working class while protecting and serving capital. They have different roles to play in that machine (see the ratchet effect) so they are not identical, but expecting either of them to actually help you or be beneficial to you is folly. Unfortunately, due to those electoralist brainworms, a lot of people who otherwise would be allies in the struggle for a better world are misled into thinking that voting for Democrats is a means to improvement when they are not. They aren’t even a “lesser evil” that will help stymie the descent into fascism. They are not a lesser evil, the are part of the exact same evil machine, and they won’t stop fascism because their role is literally to impede leftward political movement as a bulwark for the right. Democrats aid fascism, they do not stand in its way.
Voting within a bourgeois system, especially at the federal level, is generally useless, yes. We can get into that if you want (such as how the tremendous political energy spent on promoting bourgois electoral candidates saps all the energy that could have been spent on actually useful organizing, as well as making people think they’ve “done their civic duty” by voting, excusing and dismissing them from doing what actually needs to be done for progress to happen), but even for those who are still unwilling to accept that fact, it doesn’t mean “there are no choices” because we still have for example PSL candidates, who aren’t running with an expectation to win, but to expose more people to socialist thought. In short, there are good choices, but voting for Democrats is not one of them. And when you defend or support Democrats, not only are you not helping, you are aiding the fascist side. When we criticize Democrats specifically it is usually because so many people have been fooled into thinking Democrats are on the left, that Democrats represent resistance to fascism.
Finally, what you said about how we are “blaming everyone else” is ridiculous. We are very clearly “blaming” the ruling class. But it’s not even about “blame” which is a very idealist (and incorrect) framing. We correctly identify capitalism as a system (and imperialism on a global scale) as being the source of these problems and that is what we are struggling against, including Democrats who are just another facet of the ruling class enforcing its will over the rest of humanity.
This should have like a billion likes but we worship idols and we like just looking good. Remember kiddos it is all about managing perception. Nom nom nom treats on duhhhhh visa cause I guess I was born yeasturd day. Loops poops and dupes. Rinse and repeat as the world burns. Tricks are for kids ya’ll.
Feel Fine, Vote Stein
Id say Gloria la Riva, but anything beats genociders.
It’s time for the biennial teeing of the football.
Inb4 some liberals start yapping “that you better try and kick the football charlie otherwise the Republicans will win”
deleted by creator
I rather see more dead politicians. When politicians fear the people they work for the people!
Surely there is something in between rioting and a farce of an electoral process where you pick which team colour does imperialism for you.
At this point it sure doesn’t seem like there is.
That’s by design. Stop accepting the options that are handed to you, and pick the other options that those in power hide behind the curtain.
Peaceful national shutdown, but there’s excuses why that can’t happen as well.
It’d take two weeks, if around 60% in the urban areas did it. The Houses would run to impeach.
deleted by creator
I legit do not understand…
Peaceful national shutdown, the one thing very few of them talk about.
They either like the excuses or the dreaming about rioting, but anything useful that requires action is anathema.
It’s literally the only thing that isn’t violent and would get their Houses moving and it’d take about two weeks which isn’t even enough time to evict someone let alone starve (which they bitch about anyway) but there’s no willingness to make the effort or go through the hardship.
Because it would have violence inflicted on it well before that two weeks. I agree it’s a great opening move, but you have to be ready to fight to protect the general strike, both against opportunists who’ll scab for the ruling class and against the goons they’ll throw at you to break the strike.
Because it would…
Again, this comes across as a preempted excuse, I’m sorry. That’s not necessarily the case and then you do have to have the forces fully against the public.
This is the problem…nothing can apparently be done, because there’s always reasons not to, never reasons to.
The truth is, the country’s people aren’t willing to go through hardship, it’s that simple. They are happy for others to, applaud people like the French but won’t do it themselves and when that’s pointed out, we don’t understand the complexities or some other shit.
Yes, you might have to fight the general strike in some areas. Yes it’ll take hardship. It’d also take about two weeks at most. Hardly enough time to be evicted or starve, or do without healthcare which apparently is an existing issue anyway.
Nobody else is bailing them out, that’s for certain.
We’re also getting tired of their politics being forced on us on top of it. We didn’t vote for fucking CPACS and we don’t want to be inundated with their fucking military.
I love how the only political action you can conceive of is voting for pre approved candidates handed down to you. Joining a party that actually aligns with your goals, never. Engaging in political agitation (from something as simple as handing out fliers to organising rallies/events), impossible. No the only way to engage with politics is to tick off blue or red genocide before ignoring it for another 4 years.
I’d like for you to not vote for genociders and instead make actual demands of your political representatives
You can vote for whoever you want comrade but the democrats are not going to get rid of ICE.
I dream about a world where children don’t starve and people don’t sleep under bridges while the wealthy molest children in empty high-rises. I dream about a world where people, no matter their skin color or geographic location, do not have to fear a clear sky, where everyone is free to pursue a life of joy and everyone is ensured a respectable life.
Sadly I understand that the rich child molesters and their bootlickers like you will not let such a world come to be peacefully, thus I accept the knowledge that violence is necessary, even though it is not beautiful. Read Blackshirts & Reds.Pardon me? I don’t understand how I’ve given the impression I think there is anything positive about the USA.
if not just vote blue and pray for a better candidate
The dem leaders cannot and will not win without addressing voters needs. They need to own that idea as a group. Every time they are anywhere they need to be yelled at until they get in line. Right now Trump is trying to make a witch hunt case against Illhan Omar for instance and have her deported. She is a US citizen. Where TF are the Dems in defending her? If they dont defend her because she is of somali descent, then its time for scorched earth on the DNC. I’m tired of traitorous behavior from the DNC and I’m not going to just vote for them and hope.
Effing Gavin Newsom is trying to not only kill the billionaire tax measure in California but also ban any future wealth taxes. And you suggest we go along and hope they give us something better in the future? why would they ever do that?
I’d prefer if you didn’t try to get people to vote for genociders
Like a clockwork lol.
I’d like the DNC to acknowledge your realization and act on it, as if they had an election to win instead of just checks to cash. Too much to ask?
The trick is to kick where the football is going to be rather than where it is.
Sure Charlie, this time you’ll get it.
You could also just kick Lucy. Wouldn’t get the ball going, but it would probably be cathartic.
Might make her stop moving the ball
Worth noting centrist democrats are simply Republicans-light. They cave to conservatives constantly to get concessions republicans immediately undo as soon as they take congress. Democracy has not fared well since democrats caved to Reagan. Schumer’s legacy sucks.
To the RNC, The Democratic party is something between colleagues in empire, controlled opposition and bratty subs
Everyone realizes that ICE during democratic administrations are performing the normal functions of border security, which we must have in this country, but during Republican administrations they basically become an authoritarian purging tool.
Are you being ironic or
ICE didn’t exist until 9/11 because they’re functions were served by other agencies. It’s always been a grift.
They’ve never performed the “normal functions” of border security. They’ve always pretty openly been racists who kidnap, torture, and deport people that they don’t like. We don’t need that at all.
ICE is not responsible for border security you imbecile. They are an internal immigration agency, border “security” is handled by various other goons of the state. So specifically what part of ICE do you find necessary?
I was wrong. I was too focused on seeing ICE so many times in the image.
Thank you for admitting fault. Sorry for insulting you. Why was your reflex at seeing critique of democrats to run defense for ICE?
normal functions of border security, which we must have
Lmao, what? Why?
While I am aware ICE does not do anything related to border security and I’d like to live to see a world without borders, in the world we have currently border security makes sense for socialists nations. Stopping influx of smugglers, agitators, weapons, drugs, weird religious groups, invasive biomass and stuff like that seems pretty good.
Speaking of “invasive” biomass I do actually wonder how that would function in a world without borders. The introduction of various plants and animals have done immense harm to various ecologies around the globe.
in the world we have currently border security makes sense for socialists nations.
We’re not talking about a socialist nation. We’re talking about the present day US.
Stopping influx of smugglers, agitators, weapons, drugs, weird religious groups, invasive biomass and stuff like that seems pretty good.
Other than “weird religious groups,” all of that would be much easier to control with mostly open borders. When you have desperate people crossing the border, completely outside the system, then it’s much easier to hide contraband in that mass of people. Making immigration a formality doesn’t mean getting rid of basic customs checks entirely.
As for weird religious groups, I’m not really sure what you mean by that. The US is full of some of the weirdest religious groups in the world. I’m not sure there’s any religious group out there that’s weirder or more dangerous than the Christian nationalists we already have.
Speaking of “invasive” biomass I do actually wonder how that would function in a world without borders. The introduction of various plants and animals have done immense harm to various ecologies around the globe.
I’m not talking about completely abolishing borders overnight. I’m talking about removing, for lack of a better word, the political component of borders. If people could freely cross borders with only a simple check to see if they’re carrying anything illegal, then borders have begun to “wither away.” Yes, they still exist, but only as a simple administrative function.
Wall of text elaborating on what I mean:
Let’s imagine a future that’s well on it’s way to communism, where borders still exist but have become nothing more than checkpoints for invasive species, a world where people grow up with them not meaning anything more than that. Perhaps those people would notice that natural habitats don’t map cleanly to borders, that it doesn’t make sense to have a checkpoints between two countries with shared habitats, or to not have checkpoints between different habitats in the same country. So, they simply decide to redraw borders around natural habitats, since the only function of the borders is to check for invasive species. In that world, where an inconceivable decision can be made so casually, we can say that borders, as we understand them, have ceased to exist. Yes, there are still lines on maps and checkpoints and searches, but they’re an entirely different thing from what we call borders today, so much so that we can reasonably say that borders have been abolished.
And perhaps their children will find that education about invasive species has improved to the point that the checkpoints never find anything anyway and are no longer necessary, perhaps they will reorganize the administration of natural habitats to remove these hard lines entirely, seeing as nature doesn’t follow hard lines, and regarding them as outdated.
It’s the same way, I find it hard to imagine how a world could function without some form of money. Certainly, if we tried to do it overnight, by decree, it wouldn’t work. But, if say housing was provided by the state, then people would be less desperate for money because they’re no longer scrambling to make rent. Someone who decides to stay in a relationship because renting on their own would be too expensive, would be free to decide such things based on how they really feel. In turn, perhaps someone decides that working out and staying fit will be a better way to appeal to a partner than making money, and so their drive for money decreases. An artist, who might otherwise take whatever commission they can find because they need to pay rent, might be more selective and exercise more creative control over their work. Etc.
We could imagine a world where all of the basic necessities of life are provided for without money, but money is still used for collectables and rare items. Like in Star Trek, there are some people who care a lot about “gold pressed latinum,” but there are others who don’t care about it at all. While currency exists, collecting it has become little more than a hobby, and it’s not someone anything needs. You could reasonably say that money, as we understand it today, has been abolished in Star Trek.
I think you might have misinterpreted my intention. I am not trying to run defence or even really discussing US border fascism. The other users post and your response just made me think about how stuff like that would work in a socialist world, which is why I put that at the top. Its the framing for the rest of the question.
What would you like the border to be managed?
Open borders, essentially. Massive reforms to streamline the immigration process to make it a formality so that people don’t have a reason to immigrate illegally, and treat it as a paperwork violation if they do, since that’s what it is.
Completely dismantle immigration courts which are kangaroo courts where young children have to defend themselves against threat of deportation with no right to an attorney. Full due process for immigrants.
If an immigrant commits a crime, deal with it the same way as anybody else committing a crime.
So again, why is ICE or anything like it remotely a “must have?”
Let’s say this happens and a large amount of people come into the country in a short period of time. They can move anywhere they want and many of them move into your neighborhood and now they make up the majority of your town’s population. They don’t share your values, they’re a different class than you, and they feel the town should adapt to their way of life. The character of your town completely changes.
You’re okay with that?
Taco trucks on every corner! The horror! What will happen to our sophisticated culture and way of life?! What will happen to:
Speaking as a leftist who was born and raised in the Bible Belt, it’s bold of you to assume that I shared the values of my town or neighborhood in the first place.
More seriously, cultural diversity is a strength in a similar way biodiversity is. Bringing together the knowledge, experiences and perspectives from across the world is an asset that will only help us to make wiser, more informed decisions that account for factors that one culture might have as a blind spot.
Furthermore, accepting and respecting immigrants will help build a sense of solidarity. Even if they don’t value inclusivity, welcoming and including them is the first step towards showing them the benefits of such values.
Also, your argument is literally the exact argument used for redlining, when PoC were segregated from white neighborhoods. “What if a black person moved next door to you? What if a whole bunch of black people move in? There goes the neighborhood!” It was racist bullshit then and it’s racist bullshit now, but it also illustrates another point, which is that there are already many different cultures within the US that are free to move wherever they please already. For example, I was born and raised in the South, but I moved to a different region with a different culture and different values. The only difference between me and an immigrant is that one of us crossed an imaginary line called a state line and the other crossed an imaginary line called a national border.
I hate to post greentext, but immigration is an issue where you can literally just do this:
It’s hard not to read your response as a parroting of the views of others.
Right back at you.
If I was interested in “parroting the views of others” I’d still be in the South and I’d be a conservative just like my parents, religious leaders, and (many of) my teachers were.
What I said is my genuine opinion and the result of critical, independent thought. If I happen to agree with the arguments some people make, it’s coincidental.
Frankly, I doubt many people on the anti-immigration side could say the same thing. They freak out over it because the TV tells them to, even though it doesn’t actually affect them at all.
Because you’re a real free thinker with such novel concepts as “guys we have to vote for genocide, its the most important election of our lifetime! Incrementalism is this cool new thing I just invented, the system will let us reform it and all we have to do is give more power to fascists!”
What do these things you’re saying actually mean? How the hell are other proles a “different class” than me? What in the vagueposting about values, Great Replacement fuck are you actually talking about? What is the concrete concern here?
So there was no border control in Murica before 2003?
Most if not All of our law enforcement agencies are completely out of control. Under both republicans and Dems. Laws are not followed. Remediation by the courts is not a given. Under this system its not reasonable to say, "we must have border security forces". Its like saying we must have drug sniffing dogs in a world where every dog has gone rabid. Sure they will bite and kill, but we must have that function they used to do. No. Just no. Plenty of other countries make this an administrative process, and even now ICE is rounding up people on civil charges, immigation violation is not a criminal charge and never has been.
normal border security, (…), must have
No and no
Help me see the line between “normal” and authoritarian.
This article comparing obama to the first trump presidency calls out that trump did not prioritize the enforcement goals he put forth. Obama did prioritize them, but included a blanket priority to remove anyone who entered illegally after 2014. I don’t see how the distinction between targeting individuals convinced or charged/suspected of criminal activity has any meaning if the obama priorities include blanket removal of people who entered after 2014.
My perspective is that the distinctions only have meaning to those who prioritize the appearance of respectability, or those seeking to minimize disruption to sectors of the US economy that rely heavily on the ability of capitalists to exploit the uncertain status of undocumented individuals.
Perhaps that is where the line sits for those who feel that the dems being on board with ICE during obama but opposing it during trump was reasonable and consistent.
This article compares Biden and the second trump admin. (It’s got a different take than the first but I’ll be honest I just googled comparisons of the two admins and assumed the facts would be accurate and that I didn’t need to read into their analysis, if you disagree with the facts I’m happy to listen).
If we carry forward the idea that it is just to prioritize the arrest of undocumented individuals with arrests and convictions, the percentage of annual ICE arrests that were of people with arrests or convictions were:
- 2022 (biden): 32.5%
- 2023 (biden): 43.3%
- 2024 (trump): 71.7%
Yes, there has been a significant increase in deaths in ICE custody since 2024. I have not found annual stats for deaths involving border enforcement, so I don’t know that a meaningful comparison can be made about the use of force overall. And yes, trump is deporting people to countries where they have no status. Biden did that too, however, by extending the trump initiated title 42 expulsion where people are expelled to their country of last transit. I guess the question is, do people feel that if there are a larger number of individuals with criminal charges or convictions deported, do they feel the increase in deaths at the hands of the enforcers are justified? How many deaths, injuries or use of force or detention are justified in boarder enforcement?
Finally, yes, trump is using the deployment of ICE as a threat against people in cities he considers his enemies. I don’t understand why this, in particular, is causing uproar. Not because I agree with it, but because I think there are so many different reasons it could upset people and I want to understand which ones are upsetting whom and why. For example it could be that:
- it shatters the illusion of immigration enforcement as the good guys.
- it forces those who oppose ICE in general to take a stand or appear hypocritical, potentially overwhelming existing support networks and leaving people scrambling and exhausted.
- it is an implied threat against those with status (as bystanders or suspects themselves) with the implication that having status should be protection from state use of force.
- it implies that more ‘good’ individuals who are without legal status will be removed
I’m sure I’m missing some.
To be clear, I’m not seeking to agree with people on their stance or cause them to agree with mine. This is why I have avoided giving my opinion on the topic of ICE overall. I just don’t understand what people see when they say this time is so much different than the last.
It’s clear the bar for the activities of ICE (and CBP) being acceptable is very different for different people and I wonder if that’s the key to the disagreement on if the meme is “fair”.
it shatters the illusion of immigration enforcement as the good guys.
I think you hit the crux of the matter with this one. Liberals need to believe they and the state they uphold are the good guys and Trump just makes it too damn hard for them.
But the democrats didn’t fund the same ICE as the new gestapo version of ICE now run by a fascist turnip, one that employs rape-bro psychos who shoot unarmed civilians for no good reason, one that built deliberately inhumane detention centre to illegally hold people without trial etc.
This is the first result I found, after doing less than 5 minutes worth of searching. I’ve always found it better to do basic levels of research before I start talking about things. Maybe you should too.
Yes they did.
Do you think ICE turned into something else overnight? Tom Homan was installed by Obama. The kids in cages people were crying about under Trump 1 were put there initially by Obama. Biden expanded the camps. When do you think ICE turned?
Moreover, all of the instances where an ICE agent shot a member of the public were commited by agents who had been with ICE for years. The brutality is part of the fabric of the agency. Abolish.
how may people did ICE shoot before trump?
No way of knowing since this shit happens all the time and the state has a long history of hiding the evidence.
Its also not really the thing that matters to mesince I care about more than just the murder of nice white people, and ICE has been throwing children into concentration camps since the inception and thats the actual issue - Not the fact that the state has now turned its ire towards white people.curious about what the differences are between where ICE shoves people and a standard holding cell?
I’d start by doing a basic google search. Consider using search terms like “-Trump” and “before:2016” in order to get results from before his time.
You could just google it. “how many people did ice kill under Obama and Biden”
Barack Obama Administration (2009–2017)
• During the Obama presidency, total reported deaths in ICE detention numbered approximately 70 to 80+ individuals across the multi-year span (averaging roughly 8 to 12 deaths per year during most fiscal years, with year-to-year totals fluctuating).
Joe Biden Administration (2021–2025)
• During the Biden presidency (January 2021 to January 2025), reported deaths in ICE detention totaled approximately 75 to 85+ individuals across his four-year term (with totals varying yearly based on detention populations and healthcare conditions inside facilities).
And it gives this link for followup https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_deaths_in_ICE_detention
Bullshit. Do I need to spell out why?
Why?
When did ICE become yet another version of Gestapo?
I was going to write “instrument of opression”, but state is one by definition, so need to be more specific
“Institutional violence only bad when my favorite color team hate it!”
Lol. Did you even read what I said?
The day it was founded. On what grounds do you argue that the xenophobic minority hunting group with dedicated private concentration camps isn’t a modern gestapo?
Somehow I doubt that. Ground: that’s only orange shitstain’s second term brought “we shoot you because we feel like it” news to me. But I live far from America, so could be wrong
It seems you’re asking in earnest, so here’s some different sources for you to read that might help expand your understanding of how historically terrible the US is.
Facilitating the global heroine drug trade - A thread
Massive drone assassination program
Chicago Police has had “black sites” for decades
Ferguson Riot leaders were assassinated and disappeared under Obama in a dem city with a dem governor [2]
American police used to (and still does) torture detainees [2]
Biden deported more than Trump 1
Biden expanded the concentration camps [2]
Biden was planning on doing mass deportations using ICE as well
Thank you, will read
You are wrong, yes
That’s horrible. Thank you
The day it was found.
Why didn’t I hear about them execution executing wanton violence before?
Because you didn’t care
Try harder. Didn’t hear != didn’t care
Idk, maybe you had ear surgery or something
Doubtful. The day it was found it was already an instrument for oppression, but just a gang of armed dumbheads with state approval of whatever they feel like doing? I am still clinging to hopeful thought that it’s a “recent” development, not something that’s been happening for decades
The propaganda got completely wild, but the day to day operations didn’t change a whole lot, it’s just more public now
Focking hell if that’s true. So only thing that’s changed much is that I am now more informed about what they do? (Yes, it is so hard for me to believe that I need this re-stated a few times)
Yes please
Done, see my other comments
Thats not you spelling it out lmao. Write out your arguments or at the very least link to a specific comment you think spells it out.
It is spelling it out. But some folks say only thing changed is that I’ve become more informed about what ICE does
“I actually have all the arguments and proof against your position. Just go look for it through my comment history” is not spelling it out you dumbass
Lol. Have a nice day
Have the day you deserve
I made a comment where I linked to articles from the first trump term where democrats were calling for ICE to be defunded : https://crazypeople.online/comment/11610798
This got walked back as the 2020 election drew near. Which is why people are questioning the sincerity of this new opposition. Does this satisfy you that the mainstream opposition to ICE isn’t new during this term?
https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/2025190
The One Big Beautiful Bill Act (the Bill that gave I.C.E. a huge budget increase), not a single Dem voted for it.
https://ballotpedia.org/One_Big_Beautiful_Bill_Act
Seems like a downward trend from the post 9/11 days.
So because of another bill the democrats didn’t vote for, this means they didn’t vote for a bill that they did vote for?
I see you fail to understand “downward trend”. That means there was a high, and over time, the amount has gone down.
“Up” or “high” can be like looking toward the sky. And “down” or “low” can be like looking toward the ground.
A “trend” is something that happens after a period of time.
So the number of people voting for I.C.E. asshole money has gone down over time. Which is a good thing.
Downward trend.
I see you fail to understand “the democrats voted to increase funding for ICE”, which they did. You seem very set on moving the goalposts instead of relating to the facts at hand. You said it was bullshit, what about the democrats not voting for another bill makes it bullshit that the democratic party voted to increase ICE funding?
7 Democrats
218 Republikkkanshttps://newrepublic.com/post/205604/seven-democrats-voted-keep-funding-ice
Tom Suozzi (New York)
Henry Cuellar (Texas)
Don Davis (North Carolina)
Laura Gillen (New York)
Jared Golden (Maine)
Vicente Gonzalez (Texas)
Marie Glusenkamp Perez (Washington){I live in California)
I know “downward trend” is hard to understand. But please make an effort. And stop voting for Republikkkans.
I know this is difficult for you to grasp, but please try to make a miniscule effort: You claimed the post was bullshit, yet you cant disprove it, so you keep trying to move the goalposts. The democrats ensured ICE funding increased each of the years given in the post, that is a fact. Your “proof” that that isn’t a fact is not proof of that, its proof that you think it is okay to fund ICE as long as there’s another party thats worse. Thats literal whataboutism and completely irrelevant to the statement YOU made and YOU have yet to provide proof for.
If you are so certain the statement in the post is bullshit, then why is it so hard for you to actually engage with it, instead of dancing around it? Go through each year given in the post, disprove that the democrats ensured ICE funding for each year given. It should be easy, since its bullshit according to you. Either that or fuck off with your weak rhetorical tricks.
I can’t see the posted image. All I get is “Unable to load page”. Is that happening for anyone else?
Maybe your instance couldn’t load it? https://lemmy.ml/post/53841606 Try this link to see it from this instance?
It loads now. Must have just been a brief outtage.
Let’s see your source?
Do you need a source for the sun shining or grass growing as well? Lmgtfy.com
Are you on crack? WTF are you talking about? So you don’t have a source?
A source for the historical voting records of the democratic party that isn’t just the publicly accesible voting records that you can just go look at? No, not anything that’s any better than that.
Oh shit, this is lemmy.ml. Tanky town.
Ad hominem
If anything, Democrats present themselves as more competent at deporting and killing people in other countries
Of all the years to forget the space between
this us conflating immigration agencies before Trumps ICE redirect.
ICE was founded in 2003
pretending ICE before Trump and after Trump are the same thing is dishonest.
Not really, pretending like ICE were a group of saints before Trump is deranged.
Pretending that ICE wasn’t kidnapping, murdering, raping, torturing and deporting people under Obama and Biden, as well as Trump, is more than dishonest, it shows your true priorities.
