I’ve been a paid Proton Unlimited customer for several years now and aside from a few small complaints, I’m generally very happy with the services I’m paying for. I agree that there is too much focus on “sidequests” like Wallet and Meet before core products are fully rebuilt and meeting expectations. I agree that Linux versions and some feature implementations are taking a long time. However, I have a fully functioning suite of Mail, Drive, VPN, Calendar and more that meet 95% of my needs. To be fair, I’m sure the zero-access/zero-knowledge encryption aspect makes development much more difficult.
If you’re worried about political affiliations/interests, I’ll give you that Andy Yen has made a few worrisome comments. I’m not sure what to do there. Assuming there aren’t repeat occurrences, I’m satisfied with their statement about the French political figure sponsorship.
If it’s the FBI cases and subpoenas, it comes down to understanding the difference between privacy and anonymity, and knowing what strategy is required to achieve actual anonymity.
So why (especially on Lemmy) is there so much Proton hate/relunctancy? Eager to hear some non-biased, fact-driven thoughts here!
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I moved to infomaniak myksute from two reasons, they have better app - proton drive on ios doesn’t allow search, and its less than 2chf per month for 1TB of storage
They have sketchy marketing that over promises the idea of privacy without actually providing it and my personal user experience with it was pretty ass.
I don’t care too much of them as a product, but when they pretend to care about privacy laws and such, it really bothers me because their actions clearly show that they don’t.
Their stupid “muh swiss laws” cop out for everytime they hand over data is especially infuriating because of the many other Swiss based services that did or do not follow such a method of operation.
PirateBay offered more security than these guys and it took the US Government threatning Switzerland before they eventually seized their servers in 2006. It was unsuccessful and the website was back up after 3 days. Even after the court trial against the founders, they continue to run it to this day.
The pirate bay was in Sweden though
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The classic blunder.
You friend, are missing the point - or more accurately you are relegating it to a “minor bullet on the list”.
It’s not the quality of knife produced, it’s who the producer is and how he will use the profit if you buy it from him.
You can spin desperately to find a contortion that you can personally abide, but it doesn’t change the objective reality.
People like to hate.
I’m coming from a position and stance similar to yours, a paying customer for many years, etc… I can completely see criticism of the proton platform for various reasons, such as some feature sets, your mentioned slow to market on what seems like priorities to the community, the security stance of eggs in one basket, etc… I think proton deserves honest criticism on many fronts, and also aren’t the answer to everybody’s threat model. Fine.
The rest? It’s hate. It’s not even stance or opinion. Its hate. The smallest things are taken and the reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Andy Yens comments haven’t been THAT bad compared to the political people he gets associated with. But okay, I can see taking the small concept and saying it’s evidence of a bigger picture behind HD scenes. But then there’s hate. But proton set up their organization to prevent a single person (like Yen) from dominating and taking them in the wrong direction, but that gets ignored. Just hate. Let’s talk about a news article where out of context proton “gave away” user info (when in reality it was all the fault of the user). But we’ll ignore all the times proton didn’t give up information they were asked for. Because that goes against the hate squad.
Again, if somebody doesn’t like proton, good for them. Don’t use them. Think they are the devil, good for them advise people as to why and to stay away from their products. But most of the hate comments aren’t expressing any of that. Its just hate, and if you don’t see it too then you are stupid and deserved to be hated too. That’s the vocal majority. That doesn’t mean its the majority opinion, it just means the loudest voices are saying that.
Sorry, my answer is a bit of a rant saying I agree with you. I’m sure many will disagree and that’s fine. But opinions are allowed to be shared both ways.
There are a couple issues I’m aware of that tend to make people wary of Proton.
First is Andy Yen’s open support of fascists. Which you mentioned in your post. I know that he has tried to walk back his comments and claim they aren’t political, but anyone claiming the GOP is anything other than fascists and oligarchs is either too stupid to trust, or dangerous because their beliefs are aligned with those fascists.
Second is that Proton continues to expand their suite of services and are trying to get people to buy into all of it, much the same way that people bought into the google suite. This centralizes many services, which is problematic if the company makes changes that do not align with the users wants and needs. So many people push to avoid this. Centralization in general opens users up to enshittification that is difficult to extract yourself from.
There may be more, but that is what I’m tracking. And it’s why I ended my subscription with them, and moved most of my things away from Proton mail.
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It wasn’t just praising an appointment. “By working on the front lines of many policy issues, we have seen the shift between Dems and Republicans over the past decade firsthand,” Yen wrote. “Support for cracking down on corporate monopolies is popular on both sides of the political spectrum. Unfortunately, corporate capture of Dems is real, and in the end, money won. It is hard to see how this changes, and Republicans are likely to lead the antitrust charge in the coming years.”
He is praising the party as a whole. The party that is full of fascists and pedophiles. The dems are corporate shills, but in what fucking reality can any sane person claim the Republicans are better? That is why I framed it as open support to fascists. During the controversy, when people had already expressed disappointment and highlighted the problematic nature of his original statement he doubled down.
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I’ve noticed that there’s a peculiarly dogmatic approach to antifascism here, and I think that colors a lot of the discussion around Proton.
Its the same wirh firefox… so much FUD spreads for every tiny missetep. And the result is likely that more people stay with gmail/chrome or people killing upstream by supporting forks
I’m not aware of the stuff with Firefox specifically, but I think I can agree with the premise. It seems that this boils down to the question of whether “good enough” really is.
This line of thinking is particularly relevant within this community. For instance, Proton/Tuta isn’t immune to subpoenas, so the only way I can think of to have truly secure email is to have a self-hosted service with a dead man switch. However, most email providers block most self-hosted email servers… so one either needs to compromise, or not participate. It’s an uncomfortable place for a lot of people, and calls into question their morals as well as their commitment to the same. I think this is why points that may seem spurious may often creep in, because we’re all trying to find something to better inform our decisions in uncertain circumstances.
Could you elaborate further or clarify specifically why this approach “colors” the discussion here? Almost all approaches to antifascism kinda have to be dogmatic in my view
I didn’t understand how you’re supposed to be measured about fascism. As if fascists are equally charitable and deserve measure.
So in 2024 he is praising the republican party about anti-trust, which even you admit he is wrong about. So he is spreading misinformation, or possibly disinformation depending on whether he knows he is wrong. And he really should have known that the republican party rabidly supports mega corporations at that point, with the only exceptions being any that oppose their agenda. And he is ego stroking Trump. Which is what a bunch of other tech billionaires have done as a prelude to climbing into bed with him and going full mask off techno-fascist. So I don’t really see why you’re surprised that this is a giant strobing red flag for a bunch of people that are privacy focused, and largely fall on the left.
I’m not calling for everyone to boycott Proton. I’m answering the original question of why people dislike proton. And I said that it was enough for me to personally cancel my subscription.
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Mamdani didn’t spout obviously false republican talking points on a public forum, and then double down in defense of the republican party when called out on it. The republicans don’t support the little guy. Anyone that pays attention to anything the party has done since st least Reagan should know that. So what Mamdani did was not the equivalent, and it seems disengenuous to claim such an obviously false equivalency.
And I’m not saying divest from everyone that is wrong about anything. I’m saying that spreading obviously incorrect information that aligns with fascist talking points should be scrutinized. It should get called out. It should make people question your beliefs and motives.
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Just adding that Mamdani talks mad shit about Trump both before and after meeting with him. He’s extremely principled in his approach.
I’m also a proton user, and I like it so far. My only complaint is that sharing my calendar with my wife (also through proton) doesn’t work very well. But I am curious what my fellow lemmings would recommend in place of proton. I’m sure there are opinions out there…
disroot.org is recommendable. Notable points:
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They rely fully on open technologies. Everything that they do you can reproduce locally. A big part of donations towards them (I’ve participated) automatically go to the technologies they use.
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They have a history and reputation. I’ve “visited” their community (digitally) and have a feeling of trust that they are who they claim to be. Their work aligns with their intentions.
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They simply provide many of the components that I need. E.g. email, nextcloud (which enables calendars, MoneyBuster/iHateMoney), two fediverse servers, etc.
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Objective downside is that their services are sometimes down, e.g. for a full hour. This is NOT very fun when you just want to sync your calendar right now. They also have a thing about their registration form which I never understood, and that is that they only allow registering on weekdays. Like WTF? IDK if it’s more funny or absurd. But I can tolerate this part, and since the other parts are great, in total I love their work and their services.
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I am curious what my fellow lemmings would recommend in place of proton.
I’d recommend Tuta. (I use Proton myself, but still have a Tuta account as well)
They’ve got mail, calendar, and Drive coming soon. A good little selection of apps without too much, and their prices are quite reasonable. I will say though, you get less email aliases than Proton, no VPN bundled in, and their user interface is… simplistic, shall we say.
But, if all you really care about is just having an email and calendar, and soon having some basic cloud storage too, their prices are very reasonable and they haven’t had any major controversy I’ve heard of. (other than some people complaining about them allowing LLM-generated code in their repos, which I personally believe is fine as long as it’s reviewed by a human, who actually understands the commit, before approving it)
SILENCE BRAND
I know you asked for facts, but as someone who moved from Proton I can at least explain my reasoning. I like to split my services amongst multiple vendors in general. I felt like they were pushing the suite too hard, so I used that as an opportunity to move the couple of services I had with them to different providers.
I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with proton, but I like being able to move to a different service without having to move the others.
At the end of the day, Proton is good enough for 99% of people. If your risk profile necessitates something even more robust, then go find it. I’ve been generally very happy.
I’ve always been Antiton. /s
Because many (most?) Lemmy users prefer to ignore that - if you look too close - most stuff they use was created by people that they would absolutely hate in person.
In my mind the ideal product maintainer for an Lemmy approved product has to be part of the LBTQ+ community, has to be some people of color, atheist, vegan and must subscribe to the EXACT same flavour of leftism the individual Lemmy user has sold his soul to.
In my mind the ideal product maintainer for an Lemmy approved product has to be part of the LBTQ+ community, has to be some people of color, atheist, vegan and must subscribe to the EXACT same flavour of leftism the individual Lemmy user has sold his soul to.
Maybe I’m in the minority here, but as long as the maintainer isn’t a hateful person championing movements I consider grossly immoral (fascism, racism, lgbtq+ hate, hypercapitalism, etc.) or committing acts I consider to be grossly immoral (abuse, rape, torture, human trafficking, etc) I’m happy to support a good product.
most stuff they use was created by people that they would absolutely hate in person.
This is largely true. If it’s a personality thing I don’t mind, but deeply held beliefs and actions are another thing entirely. I’m trying to change where my money, time, and effort gets spent to avoid enriching or benefiting fascists that want to immiserate, harm, or eliminate from existence me or those I care about. Unfortunately, I sometimes have to pick my battles… which is kind of fucked up when you think about it.
Laaaazy, and boring
that’s me :)
I too am not particularly convinced that the CEO is MAGA. Just because he did some lobbying with Republicans, that doesn’t actually mean he’s conservative at all. When you lobby for a cause, you can approach both, even if you don’t agree with one. I know someone who lobbied a republican for LGBTQ stuff. They were unsuccessful, but you get the idea.
I do have other complaints about Proton though.
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They sent notifications of my proton emails with revealing information to my old gmail account. Had to change alt email in settings, but it still sucks because google can now associate the email content with me, which defeats the purpose of them not having all my data. (This one pissed me off)
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The ecosystem is nice but I tend to be nervous about using one company for everything because look how google is. Not a complaint I guess but more cautionary.
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They attempt to force you to import all your gmail spam when you sign up.
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Warrants happen and they are at risk of retention laws. Don’t like retention laws, could be a problem.. Tuta doesn’t have retention laws, but I think they’re in the 5 eyes or 14 eyes. I guess it doesn’t matter if they don’t retain data.
That being said, getting away from Google to use Proton is still good because it causes competition. I moved to Proton until I could find my forever email home. Good job degoogling everyone!
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I don’t hate them, but damn are they pushing beyond what any one company should do. The only way a one-stop shop should be used at all is if it’s a very well structured, open side law source non-profit. Even then, I’m not sure that biting off as many things as proton is trying to would be for me.
If we leave some of the more scandalous headline making stories to the side, people on Lemmy tend to be the de-googlers of the world. And when they sign up for Proton, they discover Proton is a quarter Google in a trenchcoat. They want you in their ecosystem and they want you to stay there. So you wake up one morning and you’re out of the Google frying pan but into the Proton frying pan. So some of the hate is disappointment.
Because most of what you said is true but Lemmy is, unlike the most popular platforms, full of very selective individual. The overton window is different here than the mainstream. We half very different threshold and here in the Privacy community even more so on that topic. It might be “good enough” for most but if it’s not entirely open source, or rather free software, and with reproducible builds, and self-hostable, and federated, and built by people with impeccable background, and… and… and… that starts to be quite a bit.
I said this in numerous other posts, IMHO what matters is doing better, not “best” that unattainable. For some people Proton is better than what they had until now, e.g. GMail, but for others who move away from GMail to Proton and now self-host, it’s not good enough anymore.
So it depends on where you are on a multidimensional spectrum that is unique to your needs.
Not exactly. The overton window here is normal, it’s rather others that often have an extremely warped view, being indoctrinated to worship impoverishing themselves, to support oligarchs and surveillance capitalism.
That’s not my understanding of the definition of the Overton window. If I check Wikipedia it’s about mainstream, “The Overton window is the range of subjects and arguments politically acceptable to the mainstream population at a given time.” which is precisely why I contrasted our own “local” Overton window to the “normal” mainstream one. Also “normal” means what is now the norm, it’s now about what’s “right” or “wrong”.
Sure I would prefer our local Overton window here in the Privacy community of Lemmy to be the “normal” one, the mainstream one, and I do how it is shifting this way, but until they actually match, if they ever do (which I doubt) then I think it’s important to distinguish what we want versus what is.
Well, I don’t care. If the “mainstream” has radicalised to supporting fascism (while we have not), it’s not the mainstream that’s normal, but us. It’s on them to normalise.
