Europe is america and israel’s bitch.
The image should be a dog on Vader’s leash.
LMFAO. This meme makes me second-hand embarrassed for Europeans. For 3 reasons.
First, it is politically illiterate and whoever made it is clearly not a serious person.
Second, pretending you’re in Star Wars? Really?
Third, you have not and will never be the ‘good guys’ in any sort of fight, as long as you are a union of capitalist nations still feasting off of the stolen wealth of the global south.
you guys are so fucking stupid and ignorant i swear
I mean, this is accurately describing how Europeans feel
Stupid and ignorant? Well maybe europeans should try to fix that.
It’s REALLY NOT that hard.
Bro racism gets in their way, it’s not that easy.
So true 😭, how are we supposed to build a better world when brown people over with their skin all brown and shit.
Ah Europe famous for
colonization, slave trade, racism, the literal nazisbeing the good guys?Y’all I’m an American and fuck my country and fuck the current Russian state but fuck Europe even more tbh.
Also what are you hating on China for? Guess that’s European racism again.
Yeah can’t let go of the past, im still mad about the bacteria that killed my ancestor before we evolved out of the ocean
Europe still practices neocolonialism and imperialism. Hell, Australia and other European settler-colonies still exist.
As a non indigenous Australian what would a real communist do?
Read up on local decolonial movements, and listen to what they have to say and are advocating for. Read up on settler-colonialism, Fanon is an excellent writer.
What a brain dead and privileged take. Exactly how long are people allowed to be upset for? Would you say that shit to a holocaust survivor.
White people smh
Yes. I would, if they were still mad at the present german government.
The present German government that is presently elbow-deep in another Holocaust?
Well my comment is in the past so just disregard that
Ironic I’m not white, I’m Australian Aboriginal, every year on the 25th of January people getting shitty about the invasion of Australia.
I think get over it my grandmother was stolen generation but I’m not beating my chest about it
Lastly saying “White people smh” is still racist.
Imagine someone said black people smh because of their opinions
Solid mate
INCREDIBLE
LMAO
A bunch of African countries just threw off French colonial control like, three years ago, and are still being vilified for it. This shit is extremely current and you’re acting like a smug prick
Europe is profitting off child slavery and other horrible shit worldwide. This isn’t a thing of the past only, and being dismissive like this is beyond disrespectful to the many victims of capitalism.
I mean double and triple fuck Europe but fuck them more than the literal scourge plaguing the whole planet? Doubtful
I could see a reasonable take that the USA is worse. Especially if you’re just thinking about current events. As long as you’re saying fuck Europe too I consider us on the same side.
Agree
👈😎
What, if the US with their genocidial history can play world police…
Look, you need to accept that every country has skeletons in the closet. The international landscape has no good guys, only interests.
Ok you can same the about people.
But say you and I and 3 other people are in a room.
We find out one is an active serial killer another a serial rapist and you find out another had stolen $1000 from his own mother for a drug problem. If I make a judgment like " hey dude fuck that serial rapist and that serial killer. " And your response is “you have to accept that everybody does bad stuff”. That would be just as asinine. Just because nobody’s perfect and no institution is perfect. Does not mean you cannot make judgments about which one is morally better than another.
The only thing Europe did wrong was causing the fall of Rome. Everything that came after that was just a consequence.
Rise again, Italy, and claim what is yours. The world.
Famously good Rome that never did anything bad.
I would think this is not satire if we were in Reddit.
You gotta use the tone indicators haha
Okay Russia is understandable cuz they’re in a war, USA understandable cuz they’re saber rattling, but genuinely what is China doing besides minding their own business?
Buying ports and selling cars, generally speaking an economy war.
economy war is when the west voluntarily hands you all its production and then gets mad that someone somehow handed the production over. i guess.
then dont sell the ports and buy the cars?
No no no, you don’t understand, we wanted to make money from the ports and produce the cars but they had to be the complex, oil-sucking ones because those are hard to produce and we and our partners made good profits from the oligopoly and making cheap and environment friendly cars is just cheating. It’s against the rules-based world order! Also, Uyghurs!
Nationalize your ports to prevent private foreign companies from buying them.
China is the evil economy.
Boost their own, flood foreign.🤡
What are you talking about. What country doesn’t want to boost their economy???
Between an exchange of goods and services and flooding it by subventiontioning to suppress the competition is teensy tiny difference, no?
This is called a “skill issue” on the hand of western imperialists that can’t compete. Stop framing doing better as being evil.
Evil is in the eye of the beholder.
Being better at producing goods is evil?
Oh no the Chinese are sending us good quality, cheap goods and letting us pay them with our dogshit overinflated currency. If only we were forced to buy plasticky shit at extortionate prices made by the USA (USA!! USA!!).
Evil is the invisible hand of the market fisting the ass of your country, who send their production to a foreign country, and then start crying because they get better after decades of doing what guys should have being doing all along.
Explain how it’s evil to allow the US companies to move their production out of the US? The US corporations could have kept industry here, but they decided to fuck themselves over so that a few shareholders’ margins went up by a few percentage points. That wasn’t China being malicious, that’s the US lacking any sense of foresight while being blinded by greed.
Are they even trying to compete considering how many places were happy/eager to send manufacturing overseas in the name of lowering labor costs?
They are realizing they fell into a trap by doing so, so trying but failing.
What do you mean “evil economy?” Is producing goods a bad thing?
Death to production, unlimited chaos on everyone.
Literally sounds like 40k logic, lol.
Flooding foreign economies with cheap subventioned goods so the domestic can’t compete and go out of business and thus increasing dependency in you.
Yes, I’d say this is bad.Bad for who
It is a pretty bad deal for Western workers that our economies have deindustrialized. But that’s not China’s fault, that’s our ruling classes’ fault.
Deindustrialization itself isn’t really bad. It’s a neutral thing.
I would argue that it is in fact bad because it’s a threat to national security and sovereignty. The Europeans are now finding out that they’re unable to produce things domestically that their people need, and have become entirely reliant on US energy exports and military protection.
Yeah, kind of, but under a capitalist system where workers can’t reap the benefits of automation and much labor is still performed in the imperial periphery it is negative.
The goods produced in China are cheap because Western economies made a bet that they’d come out ahead by moving their capital out of their own economies and into China. China won the bet instead of them and now has more productive capacity than the West. Why is it China’s fault that the West had poor foresight and deindustrialized itself in exchange for short term profits? Should Chinese workers have remained poor forever instead of benefiting from Western investments?
China isn’t forcing anybody to buy their goods at gunpoint last I checked. The fact that western markets are unable to produce comparable goods at the same prices is entirely the problem with the way western economies are structured. The whole premise for loosely regulated markets was that they were supposed to be more efficient than state planning, turns out that was a big fat lie. So now the dumb fucks in the west are crying that their failed economic model can’t compete with China. Tough!
This is just cope, though. China has better industrial capacity, and can produce high quality goods for lower prices because of this. It isn’t because of evil, it’s because China as a socialist economy is surpassing capitalist economies.
They are literally genociding part of their population to enforce a unique race
Big if true
Can you provide a source for that claim?
“Since 2014, the government of the People’s Republic of China has committed a series of ongoing human rights abuses against Uyghurs and other Turkic Muslim minorities in Xinjiang which has often been characterized as persecution or as genocide. There have been reports of mass arbitrary arrests and detention, torture, mass surveillance, cultural and religious persecution, family separation, forced labor, sexual violence, and violations of reproductive rights.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Uyghurs_in_China
Their source for the genocide claim is this article that immediately cites Adrian Zenz. Do you have a source that can corroborate the genocide claim that doesn’t rely on Adrian Zenz? I don’t think he’s a good faith scholar.
Thank you for the source. I’ll take a look at some of their references.
They aren’t? Not only is the idea of mass Uyghur slave labor atrocity propaganda akin to claiming that there’s “white genocide” in South Africa, Christian genocide in Nigeria, or that Hamas sexually assaulted babies in Operation Al-Aqsa Flood, but the PRC is an incredibly industrialized country and as such doesn’t have a need for slavery. Slavery in general is a horribly inefficient system fir anything other than agrarian production, which is why the Statesian North liberated the slaves in the south, for more wage-laboring industrial workers.
In the case of Xinjiang, the area is crucial in the Belt and Road Initiative, so the west backed sepratist groups in order to destabilize the region. China responded with vocational programs and de-radicalization efforts, which the west then twisted into claims of “genocide.” Nevermind that the west responds to seperatism with mass violence, and thus re-education programs focused on rehabilitation are far more humane, the tool was used both for outright violence by the west into a useful narrative to feed its own citizens.
The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.
I also recommend reading the UN report and China’s response to it. These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does.
Tourists do go to Xinjiang all the time as well. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this.
What does this even mean
you are literally sniffing so much glue that your mind exists on another plane of existence
The worst crime of all. Being powerful while the wrong race.
why is china the bad guy?
Europe has convinced itself that Russia and China are existential threats to the EU, largely due to the EU’s status as vassals in the US Empire. The US Empire has been demoting the EU from vassal to periphery, though, so now they are caught between increasing tensions with the US Empire and their own historical hatred of Russia and China.
Starmer’s visit to Beijing makes it seem fairly clear that the European bourgeoisie at least wishes to normalize more with the PRC.
i concur. i feel like the op meme is just slop. not ai just … bog standard slop.
Yep, we’ll see soon how the tides change.
unrelated: just finished “state and revolution.” liked it a lot, was able to let it sink in. thoughts on next?!
That’s great! Consider checking out the Marxist-Leninist reading list I made! State and Rev is fantastic, but is that your first work of Marxist theory, or just the latest? What are you interested in?
it’s my latest. thanks for the link! i’ve knocked out most of the prominent marx / engel writing though i want to “finish” capital, and start “the 18th…”
i tend also to read anarchistic theory too. since at least right now that clicks in my brain more too. :)
thanks again!
No problem!
They try to keep a low profile globally, but they fully support Russia and North Korea. Not to mention, all the drama in Hong Kong, Taiwan, and the surrounding seas.
support North Korea
Good.
That “drama” in Hong Kong is the result of 100 years of British colonial occupation. North Korea is the result of the US bombing the entire country until there were literally no structures left. Koreans in the North needed to live in caves to avoid being covered in napalm (and if you haven’t read about how napalm interacts with human flesh, please do).
China is not the bad guy in these situations. Britain, the US, France, Spain, The Netherlands, Portugal, Germany - these are the bad guys.
The Russian Federation and DPRK are better than the west, though, as neither is plundering the global south. The RF is deeply flawed, of course, but doing trade with the EU and US Empire is arguably worse. As for Hong Kong, it’s good that they are no longer colonized by the UK, and the PRC’s stance on Taiwan is that they will rejoin the PRC when they decide, and can wait it out.
all the drama in Hong Kong, Taiwan
You 白左 really hate the liberation of your owners colonial holdings and fascist attack dogs.
Unrelated, but I wanted to say you’ve got fantastic english skills
Also, if I was to visit China, do you have any recommendations on where to visit?
If it’s your first time Beijing is a must. You get a perfect mix of the old and new china plus museums galore and old Beijing hotpot is a must try as well as proper Beijing duck.
Social and political misalignment I think. Being wary of anyone “bigger than you” is a common defensive stand too.
Authoritarian capitalistic state?
For all the tankies disagreeing simply ask yourself two questions:
Who owns the means of production in a socialist society?
Who owns the means of production in China?
Everything else follows from there
Good luck trying to state the obvious here, lots of tankies on lemmy.ml (as you can see from the other replies)
There are indeed communists here, that have been able to debunk the user you’re replying to. Simply calling unsourced claims “stating the obvious” in the face of hard facts and statistics is illogical to the extreme.
A tankie is when people point out you don’t understand what you’re talking about and are just regurgitating talking points and it makes you feel bad.
Come to China I can give you a tour I can translate so you can talk to the locals and you can see we’re humans too not just some brainwashed peasant “untermensch”. You chauvinist loser.
When did I say chinese people arent people? Are you replying to the wrong comment? You sound like you are 14 with your reading skills and going straight to calling me a loser lol.
You are a loser. You don’t view us as independent people who have our own views on our country. You ignore the fact that even western outlets report over 80% of us support the government. But none of that matters to you because we’re just peasants brainwashed by the evil “authoritarians”.
QinShiHuangsShlong was clearly explaining how you are utterly mistaken about China. When Chinese tell you that public ownership is principle (ie controls the commanding heights), that the working classes run the state, and an overwhelming number support the CPC, your response is that it’s “stating the obvious” to say otherwise. This stems from a sheer distrust of the words of Chinese people, and is why your comment is chauvanist.
You are defending and agreeing with someone calling China evil and authoritarian capitalist. He is wrong and so are you. No amount of dodging or hiding behind semantics will change the position you chose to defend and that you clearly chose to defend it for chauvinist reasons.
Not exactly related to the main discussion, but none other than Jeffrey Epstein described the Chinese government, and Xi in particular, as peasants. Said you guys spoke in “fortune cookie language.” It goes without saying that is the highest compliment to be an enemy of such people, so China is clearly doing something right.
China itself just like Chairman Mao is imperfect but I strongly believe the merits out way the wrongs and the real question isn’t is China good or bad but by how much the good out ways the bad e.g. is it 60/40, 70/30, 80/20 etc.
It’s .ml, not .lib
The people, the people.
me when I do liberal reductionism and don’t understand anything Lenin, Chairman Mao or Stalin wrote.
The mental gymnastics you need to go trough trying to defend why being capitalistic is basically anticapitalist when the ruling party has “communist” in their name is telling.
You didn’t read anything I wrote. You have no idea what you’re talking about. Please read a book.
No? You’re trying to say that an economy where public ownership is clearly the principle aspect is actually one where private ownership is principle, and are pretending materialist arguments about the structute of socialism are about what a party is named. Just respond to the actual comment, don’t insult yourself by hiding behind a strawman.
The German brainpan not able to comprehending a popular socialist government
Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy in the PRC, and the working classes control the state. For example, when looking at publicly owned industries, we can see the following:
Even checking Wikipedia, data from 2022 shows that the overwhelming majority of the top companies are publicly owned SOEs. This is China’s strategy, they’ve been honest about it from the beginning. The private sector is about half cooperatives like Huawei or farming cooperarives and sole proprietorships, with the other half being small and medium firms. As these grow, they are folded into the public sector gradually. This is China’s Socialist Market Economy.
As for the state being run by the working classes, this is also pretty straightforward. Public ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, and the CPC, a working class party, dominates the state. At a democratic level, local elections are direct, while higher levels are elected by lower rungs. At the top, constant opinion gathering and polling occurs, gathering public opinion, driving gradual change. This system is better elaborated on in Professor Roland Boer’s Socialism in Power: On the History and Theory of Socialist Governance, and we can see the class breakdown of the top of the government itself:
Overall, this system has resulted in over 90% of the population approving the government, which is shown to be consistent and accurate. If you want to learn more, while not nearly as in-depth due to time limits as Roland Boer’s work (and mostly focused on the Xi Jinping era), Red Pen’s A Summary of Xi Jinping’s Governance of China can be a good primer! There’s also This is how China’s economic model works: Explaining Socialism with Chinese Characteristics by Geopolitical Economy Report.
Europe is a capitalistic hell hole, but in comparison to the world powers it really does look like the white knight Jedi…
Europe provided something like 30% of the foreign weapons used to commit the genocide in Gaza. How many did China provide?
Not Europe, germany did. This cant be accepted and is one of the worst things they have done in recent years alongside with the judicial suppor and political backing up they give israel. This must be condemned and fought against.
But since we are on the topic of war: who is supplying russia with the drones and fiber optics they use to invade Ukraine? Isnt that China? And isn’t xi giving Putin the same political backing?
As I said: both capitalistic hell holes, but one has slightly less surveillance and slightly less political oppression.
But since we are on the topic of war: who is supplying russia with the drones and fiber optics they use to invade Ukraine? Isnt that China? And isn’t xi giving Putin the same political backing?
This isn’t comparable to genocide for several reasons. I mean, for starters, who’s accusing Russia of genocide? I know that they’ve committed various war crimes and have killed thousands of civilians in their invasion, but neither of those suffice for the war to be considered a genocide. There has to be intent from the Russian side to exterminate the Ukrainian population in a generalized manner.
I’d also just say that with the various contradictions in place in the global stage, it is apparent to me that the only way for capitalism and fascism to be done away with is for every organ of USAmerican imperial hegemony to be dismantled. If the hegemony of the US imperialist ruling class is not dismantled, if the organs of that hegemony remain in place, then the earth is done for because of climate change; if that’s not enough, there will also continue to be genocides like the one in Gaza wherever the white supremacist states can concentrate populations of climate refugees. There will be unprecedented famines and natural disasters. To be honest, a lot of these things are already all but guaranteed to happen with the amounts of greenhouse gasses in the atmosphere.
With that in mind, knowing what’s at stake, and knowing that NATO is one of the organs of US imperialist hegemony, I can’t in good faith consider that there’s a moral equivalence between the US utilizing Israel as a forward operating base, a tip of the spear, into the heart of the oppressed nations and a testing ground for the extermination technologies of the near future versus China giving Russia military aid to prevent their massive northern neighbor from collapsing. Furthermore, since I am of a mind that thinks that NATO cannot continue to exist for anything resembling a viable future to be possible, Russia is doing my work for me by exhausting NATO military supplies. Every drone, missile, bullet, and tank burned up by Ukraine is a NATO resource that will not be used against someone in the Global South in the near future. Every one of them that Russia destroys is one that anti-imperialist forces would have to destroy in another circumstance, and as valiant as groups like Ansarallah have been in their resistance, they don’t have the strength Russia has. I’m not going to condemn that.
I will condemn their war crimes, what has happened to the residential areas, hospitals, and even schools bombed by Russia is horrifying; but I won’t condemn the war in general, it would be hypocritical.
To your final point, you don’t understand what capitalism is if you think that Europe and the United States are a pole that is “just as capitalistic” as Russia and China. Like, dude, China is a massive net exporter country with a state run, centrally planned economy. Their government is fully democratic[1] and the portion of their economy that is still in the hands of private owners is set to shrink in every successive 5 year plan. That’s not capitalism. Russia is a different story, they are capitalist and have a very reactionary government, but to say they’re “just as capitalistic” as the West is a criticism that reveals a lot of ignorance. The West has such a large concentration of capital that they were the vanguard of the first, second, and third waves of capitalist imperialism. First in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, privately led by the finance capitalists seeking to extract more resources abroad as rates of profit fell at home.[2] [3] This is what led to and was epitomized by the world anti-fascist struggle, or WW2. That led to a period of US domination of world markets. Then in the 1970s came the state-led form of imperialism, carried out primarily by the United States’ unbalanced deficit spending.[4] Lastly, now we are in a kind of third wave that is still definitely dominated by the US as the center of world finance capital. Russia has always been a secondary character in each of these phases, even the SSR.
I agree with you that the war on Gaza is worse than the war on Ukraine, as one of them is “only” imperialistic and the other is a genocide. We are on the same page here.
The EU as a whole is not as supportive of Israel as Germany though, Germany is quite an outlier here. This can be explained (but not excused) by the special relationship between the ex Nazi country and the majority of Israels citizens being Jews. Still, supporting the israelian genocide is fucking disgusting, no question. Ireland, Slovenia and Spain are much more supportive of Gaza is also part of the truth though.
I would support your idea of dismantling the us system, we are in the same page here as well, I am not that optimistic that this will get rid of fascism and capitalism though, Russia China and India and the EU will fill the void.
I also agree with your take on climate change, while by pure numbers China is one of the largest emitter, given they produce most of the worlds goods, I think their climate efforts are honest and my hope is that they will stick to their plans of co2 reduction and be a valuable force for climate. China’s efforts here are very important and I respect them for that.
I also agree with NATO needing to be dismantled, I dont agree with you that Russia is doing that. Look at trump and Putin, the invasion of Ukraine is not fighting against america or the NATO, its imperial landgrabing a non NATO state. And even if Putin would fight the NATO directly, I dont think this will benefit our class, we are the ones dying in the wars, hunger in the famines and getting arrested for fighting for solidarity amongst the international working class, a true change cannot come from a tyrann winning over another tyrann, it need to be a struggle by the people against the oppressors
If you dont condemn an imperialistic country invading its small neighbour, you fight for the oppressor. War is never good for the working class, if you justify people dying in imperialistic wars, you are a class enemie in my eyes.
For your las paragraph is where I find it to get interesting as we have the same opinion, that a democratical controlled public economy is better then privately owned means of production. From what I’ve read China is moving towards private ownerships of means if production then away from it and the actual public decision-making gets progressively less in favor of concentration of power for the political elites (https://www.statista.com/chart/25194/private-sector-contribution-to-economy-in-china/) (https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/articles/china-in-xis-new-era-the-return-to-personalistic-rule/)
Here it would help to get the data straight, I’m open to critically over think my position here
Your argument that USA is worse at nearly everything than nearly everyone else I would fully support.
Apart from that there is an argument to be made, that Democratic votes dont mean shit if the discourse is not free, the regime decides what information you can get, what is allowed to be discussed publicly and what is not. Not only are there information like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_surveillance_in_China also My fellow exchange students from China tell me you can’t talk critically about the regime, even in private conversations because you will face direct or indirect repercussions. Things like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blitzchung_controversy also play into this picture.
A state where the working class is truely ruling needs a free working class who can freely from their opinion. This can’t be done in a surveillance state.
I’m not saying there is no surveillance in the EU, just less then in China.
Also also: being able to vote doesn’t make a country socialist or “not capitalistic”, if it would america would fall into this category as well.
I think gramcis works are quite enlightening in that regard.
I also agree with NATO needing to be dismantled, I dont agree with you that Russia is doing that. Look at trump and Putin, the invasion of Ukraine is not fighting against america or the NATO, its imperial landgrabing a non NATO state.
Objectively, NATO is the only reason Ukraine is still standing. No NATO = no war, Ukraine wouldn’t even have had the 2014 coup if it wasn’t for NATO.
And even if Putin would fight the NATO directly, I dont think this will benefit our class, we are the ones dying in the wars, hunger in the famines and getting arrested for fighting for solidarity amongst the international working class, a true change cannot come from a tyrann winning over another tyrann, it need to be a struggle by the people against the oppressors
Struggle against oppressors often does take the form of great tyranny and violence. That’s just how struggle works. If NATO is destroyed NATO is destroyed, the moral character of the people who do it don’t impact the material reality. Is any part of what you’re saying here actually a true thing that can be verified through study of history, or are they just moral platitudes that sound nice?
If you dont condemn an imperialistic country invading its small neighbour, you fight for the oppressor. War is never good for the working class, if you justify people dying in imperialistic wars, you are a class enemie in my eyes.
I gave my thoughts on the matter of civilian deaths in the war in Ukraine. My contention is that Russia’s invasion of Ukraine weakens NATO; I could just as easily say that your refusal to fight NATO makes you a class enemy, and the critical difference is that my position can be justified by observing the ways that NATO is involved in really oppressing the world; meanwhile your disagreement with me is based in moral categories.
About China:
What your friends told you, plainly speaking, is just incorrect. You definitely can criticize the Chinese government publicly and privately. You can protest, the protests against the pandemic restrictions are the reason they don’t do zero COVID in China anymore. There’s active Hexbear users from China who do criticize the country’s policies and are sometimes a lot more critical than the rest of us. Seriously, check out @[email protected]’s posting history. You can hop on Chinese social media like RedNote to see what people are saying; there will be a lot of positive things but negative things too.
On the issue of surveillance, I think surveillance and privacy is basically just dead in the water except for enthusiasts at this point. It’s all screwed, worldwide, it’s just a situation that’s completely beyond repair. Every country that has wide internet access has mass surveillance and the whole world is a police state. Bad situation all around. I’m not gonna try to tell you that it’s better in China than in some other countries because that’s just not good consolation, lol. But if you think that China is a country that has more mass surveillance than the rest of the world, that is mistaken.
They don’t control the flow of information, though. That part is wrong. Talk with Chinese people, I encourage you. They aren’t living in some kind of secluded little bubble, they know what’s going on around the world. My honest opinion is that sometimes they have overly naive takes about what it’s like to live in the West, like they don’t know how bad it is over here in a lot of cases. But they are broadly pretty well informed.
A state where the working class is truely ruling needs a free working class who can freely from their opinion. This can’t be done in a surveillance state.
I take specific issue with this argument. I mean, if you put some stress on the word “truly” then I don’t disagree. It’s a bit of a purity obsessed argument, but not strictly false. But if you really think that the condition of being surveilled is itself reason to forget about the tremendous historical progress China has achieved for their people, even though that surveillance and all other forms of state repression are things that Chinese communists have been aware of as necessary parts of state-building, then I think you are more concerned with creating a utopia than real emancipation.
Also also: being able to vote doesn’t make a country socialist or “not capitalistic”, if it would america would fall into this category as well.
I agree, what I meant is that China has a democratic state and that democratic state’s partial ownership of the means of production makes China a socialist country. Both parts are necessary. State ownership without any form of democracy can look like Saudi Arabia. Liberal democracy with a capitalist economy is, at best, social democracy like the Nordic countries.
You’re confused about whose hands got chopped off
Idk, being responsible for past colonialism and imperialism, including the transatlantic slave trade, nowadays benefiting from neocolonialism, and taking the side of the US whenever it bullies or bombs random ass countries is a whole lot of evil. The only thing that the EU has going for it is excellent PR.
You talk like defended the EU or something, are you a bot or can’t you read?
Dehumanization and ableism, a liberal classic
You said it’s better than the others. I contested that based on the history of cruelty perpetuated by and for Europeans and that even to this day many EU countries maintain neocolonial dominance over former colonies and other countries, benefiting from the superexploitation of their people. The EU also whitewashes western crimes constantly and helps demonize any country that seeks a sovereign path (including China). Hell, they profit from the genocide in Gaza and other atrocities worldwide and prosecute protesters locally.
If you want me to agree with you that the present day EU is better you’ll have to point to something worse that Russia and especially China are doing.
I stated that the present EU is a hell hole, but oligarch Russia, imperialist america and authoritarian capitalist china are better at being a hell hole nothing more and nothing less.
You imaging me not standing for Gaza or loving colonialism is typical tankie “if your not a Stalinist you must be a neoliberal” is so telling.
You make up a picture in your head, where you are the good guys, everyone else is evil, and nuances dont exist. Same attitude as maga, puti lovers or ai fanboys, just different made up narrative.
Explicitly tell me how the EU is less bad, let’s discuss facts. And no, I didn’t assume your position on Gaza or whatever else, I explained what the European leadership’s position is.
Freedom of expression Freedom of assembly Surveillance state Freedom of press / censorship Privacy rights Medical security (at least better than USA and russia, dont know enough about chinas medical system to judge) Queer rights Climate destruction (EU is worse than china but better than Russia and USA by relative standards)
Not to say anything of those is good here, just not as bad
Freedom of expression unless you want to wear a hijab.
Freedom of assembly unless you’re holding a pro Palestine sign.
Right to privacy unless the US government wants your data.
Freedom of press unless you write pro Russian articles.
Medical security unless you’re disabled or can’t work.
Queer rights unless you’re trans.
Wow sounds like the lesser evil for sure. Definitely a region worth celebrating
The EU is imperialist, just like the US. Russia is run by oligarchs, true, but China is both democratic and a socialist country.
How so? It’s a region of imperialists.
because the other regions are just as capitalistic?
This is the purest possible distillation of western chauvinism and for that I thank you. “Sure we’re evil, but we’re still the good guys so imagine how evil those Others must be.”
I love the memes about how China is threatening Europe so much. The last time China did anything threatening to Europe it was when they had a war to kick the British out of China, and Europe will never forgive them for it
China threatens European allies like Japan and Taiwan daily. The republic must be restored
The republic must be restored
“We need to bring back the colonial government”
You guys are not beating the psychotically racist allegations
Japan hasn’t even given a symbolic apology for their massive list of war crimes against China and all over Asia, Taiwan is part of China under international law, and the nationalist forces you defend were murdering communists while under attack by Japan. You fascist sympathizers…
I want you to google the last time that china and taiwan had a military hostile interaction.
Please do.
Try to think why these supposed “threats” are such a big deal for an alliance of countries so far away from the region to be affected, and you might stumble upon the real reason why they hate China so much.
Spoiler alert, it’s because they can no longer take advantage of China like they did when it was under the boot of the British. They hate that it’s a sovereign country that works for its own benefit, and that their footholds in the region are unable to reverse the course of history as they’d like.
Europe: collaborates in the genocide of Palestinians
Europeans: “China is so evil and militaristic, look at all those hypothetical things they could hypothetically do to Taiwan!”
get fucked colonizer
This is a democracy vs authoritarian logic. Not a matter of territorial disputes.
Hopefully Chinese democracy will prevail against western authoritarianism.
Change nothing lemmy.ml
Can you enlighten us as to how China is authoritarian in a way that Europe isn’t? Because as far as I can tell, even if literally every single thing China is accused of by anyone is true, this is what their major crimes amount to:
- Killing 10,000 protesters in Tiananmen Square
- Imprisoning 1M Uighurs in Xinjiang
- Sterilizing, abusing, and killing some number of Uighurs in Xinjiang, I’ve never seen numbers accompanying this claim
- Suppressing Tibetan religious identity
- Lack of queer rights
- Not respecting Taiwan’s sovereignty
- Suppressing political speech that goes against the government
- General religious persecution of several religious minorities other than those mentioned above; Falun Gong, Christians, other Muslims, etc
- Aggression toward their neighbors like India and the Philippines
- Support of Russia during their invasion of Ukraine
- Support of Myanmar during the Rohingya genocide
Let me know if I missed any.
Meanwhile, (mainly Western) Europe definitely has done the following in the past 50 years:
- Funded and supported Israel’s genocide in Gaza, killing anywhere from 50,000 people per the Health Ministry to 500,000 per Donald Trump
- Mostly refused to recognize a Palestinian state until quite recently
- Exploited peripheral European states economically
- Continued to hold assets belonging to former colonies in the Global South
- Collaborated with the US to destroy the USSR and strip it for parts, causing one of the largest peace-time drop in life expectancy in history, and unleashing rampant economic and sexual exploitation
- Allow thousands of immigrants to die in the Mediterranean to prevent them from reaching the continent.
- Joined the US invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan
- Joined NATO actions to destroy the Libyan government, leaving the country in a state of utter chaos and making it one of the only places on earth with open air slave markets
- NATO actions against Yugoslavia and Serbia (granted, to intervene in a genocide, but in a way that was not done to intervene in the Rwandan genocide; this suggests the intervention was primarily motivated by an extractive, imperialist interest)
- Islamophobia; Hijab bans, rampant hate speech, racially stratified economies.
- Backsliding queer rights in some countries, total lack in others.
I think there’s probably more I could go into, but I think that’s at least enough to make my case. If you want to believe China is authoritarian because you believe every point in the upper half is true, then I won’t stop you. But you’re on some craaaazy wypipo logic if you think the points in the bottom don’t mean that the same label ought to be applied to Europe.
Can you enlighten us
Ignorance is easy to cure. Willful ignorance usually requires therapy. I don’t have the time nor the color crayons for that.
Okay, I spent like 10 minutes searching my mind trying to fully understand where you’re coming from and meeting you halfway by listing things I don’t even believe to be true about China. If you can’t engage with people who disagree with you under those circumstances, then what level of engagement did you expect?
I deal with tankies locally in my native language and trust me, they are already a hassle. I don’t know where you are from and I don’t even know if you are not a bot. I am spending like 20 seconds answering and I think I still got robbed.
In other words, you’ve got no argument, but you’re too stubborn to admit it.
How much time have you spent studying the Chinese system?
How many Chinese people have you discussed politics with? How much time have you spent there?
I’ve interacted with 5 - 7 Chinese users over Lemmy recently ish. Haven’t been, but one of my close friends went to Hong Kong pretty recently and enjoyed their time.
LOL. Worked with Chinese, discussed politics with Chinese (outside of China, for obvious reason to anyone who met any Chinese citizen). Try to get first hand accounts before praising one of the strictest censorship in the world. And learn a bit about the specifics of Hong-Kong, or better, meet activists there if this is your sample of China
I met people from China who unlike you understand their government is a proletarian democracy (which is different from a liberal democracy in many ways), you can even meet Chinese people here who’ll tell you that their government is democratic, but it’s not THAT hard to learn about a system you don’t understand by at least watching YouTube if you don’t have the patience or habit of sitting down to read.
I haven’t been to China because I’m poor and on the other side of the globe, have you been there yourself? There are nice videos by tourists that show that China is just… a country. Very advanced, great infrastructure, but not what you seem to believe it is.
I have been there, to several places. I have friends there. I know Chinese outside of China. They are not hard to find.
If you live in a big city, there are Chinese places. Go there and try to talk Chinese politics with anyone there, see what’s the general feeling. Sample that with a random European place and see how more easily you can talk politics with a French or an Italian. Thing is, China sends policemen to check the Chinese abroad behave correctly. Even outside China, they are on their toes.
That’s your homework before you try to explain to people online things about a country you never experienced.
There are nice videos by tourists that show that China is just… a country. Very advanced, great infrastructure, but not what you seem to believe it is.
China is far more advanced than most westerners believe, even though they start updating their views a bit. I also heard Dubai and Tel Aviv are very nice city to live in. Which tells you nothing about the ills of their governments.
🫡
deleted by creator
You’re on Lemmy.ml.
The Jedi were neoliberal losers that allowed fascists come to power and cared not for the extreme poverty going on beneath their feet of Coruscant, so yeah putting the blue lightsaber in Europe’s hands is accurate.
China isn’t a threat to the EU lol. Russia is more complicated. but Putin is mostly playing the cards he is dealt. If you got rid of NATO and ended severe sanctions , maybe didn’t blow up their NG pipelines, Russia would grow beyond Putin.
You could put any country on the left and the US flag on the right and it would be accurate. You could even put the US flag on both sides and it would be accurate
Russia is the fucking dealer of their own cards. The sanctions and blowing up of pipelines are both direct responses to their fucking invasion of Ukraine.
They don’t get to play the victim.
Listen I do not condone the Russian invasion. But they were all but forced to invade. The western neoliberal hegemon wanted to draw Russia into a war of attrition, the west did a color counter - revolution after Euromaidan. Yanukovitch was forced out after asking for aid from Russia rather than the World Bank. The US funded extreme right-wing militants in Ukraine, and then, after Putin said they would invade if NATO expanded into Ukraine, the US and the EU pushed to make Ukraine a member state. Guess what happened next.
And the Ukrainian people have lost so much. The country has been brutally exploited for the last 100 years. The war is a proving ground for drone warfare, which is being turned on the people of the West. I won’t say Russia had no options but invasion, I won’t defend Putin, but he’s the guy. The West can’t admit that their bellicose attitude toward Russia keeps him in power. And the war in Ukraine is a prime example. Staying in power has its own horrible logic. The actions of.Putin are reprehensible, and I probably was too easy on him in the above comment. But it is much more complicated than “bad man invade.” The Ukraine war was the result of a decade of meddling by the west.
Perhaps a similar argument can be made of the US, that large powers have to ruthlessly defend their interests, as Mearsheimer argues. But the war in Ukraine wasnt the beginning, The war in Ukraine was the result.
Who are the Ewoks?
Probably sub saharan Africa?
I’m not a huge Star Wars guy. Can you refresh my memory as to when Luke went to the Ewoks’ planet, enslaved them, and chopped off their hands when they weren’t being productive enough in the rubber plantations? Because if I’m following the meme here right, Belgium would be Luke, but the guy that cuts off people’s hands is Darth Vader. Am I missing something?
It’s a loose analogy anyway. Europeans like to see themselves as heroes.
Extended universe
Me, i’m the ewoks (all of them)
Liberal brainworms slop
What a deep and specific argument you have here
Some opinions are just so bad and so rooted in fantasy and fascist brain worms that the deepest an argument against them SHOULD BE is a picture of a pig shitting on its own balls
I really enjoy seeing that image from time to time around here on Lemmy.
One of my favorite variations is
It’s not an argument it’s an observation.
Le evil Asian hordes are teaming up with orange man to hurt the poor innocent EU.
It’s peak slop. Harry Potterism. Star Wars Derangement Syndrome.
Yeah I know, I was just being annoying because you used buzz words and didn’t really explain anything. I’m not disagreeing with you, just mocking the fact that you didn’t really make a point. Not sure why that got downvoted 😂
But now I see what you’re actually referring to and I more or less agree with you. I think it’s better to be specific where we can
Euros love to imagine something they are not
yeah always funny. The main achivement they got was grpd and ubs c on iphone. You dont build an empire base on thoses.
I wish you’d add the Canadian flag on the European side.
