Privacy for me has been incredibly rewarding, but when talking to people who haven’t been introduced to privacy, there are occasionally some moments that make it exhausting. One conversation in particular is one that I’ve had to go through dozens of times, and it always goes along these lines:
- Alice: Why is your phone in airplane mode? / What’s your phone number?
- Bob: I don’t have a carrier.
- Alice: But you have a phone.
- Bob: Yes.
- Alice: How do you not have a carrier?
- Bob: Phones can come without a carrier.
- Alice: What do you use it for?
- Bob: Everything you use yours for.
- Alice: How do you talk to people?
- Bob: Messaging apps over Wi-Fi.
- Alice: What if you don’t have Wi-Fi?
- Bob: Public Wi-Fi is everywhere. If I don’t have Wi-Fi, I likely don’t need to get in touch.
- Alice: What about emergencies?
- Bob: I can still contact emergency services.
Each time it happens, it has a unique flavor. One person accused me of lying and then fraud. I know people are just curious and don’t mean to be rude, but it makes me die a little inside every time someone asks. I’ve begun trying to sidestep the conversation entirely:
- Alice: Why is your phone in airplane mode?
- Bob: To save battery.
or:
- Alice: What’s your phone number?
- Bob: You can contact me with an app called Signal.
People seem to think that a phone automatically comes with a carrier and that it’ll stop working if you don’t have one. In reality, I’m saving hundreds of dollars per year while avoiding spam, fraud, breaches, surveillance, and being chronically online. People have a hard time coping with those who do things a little differently.
If you explain yourself, people take that as meaning it’s up for debate. Better to say “I like it that way”.
I considered swapping to a flip-phone but stopped because I need to be able to access my banking app when near ATM’s. My card only ever has the bare minimum amount of money on it so that theft isn’t a concern.
If you explain yourself, people take that as meaning it’s up for debate.
Whenever you run into those people, I think it’s best to just tell them to fuck off. Maybe word it a bit more diplomatically, but still get the meaning across that it’s not a debate
Do you use your phone for navigation when driving? Any good app recommendations for navigating without cellular data?
I can second CoMaps. Works great when I’m somewhere and don’t have a local SIM.
Herewego works offline.
Yeah I dont get the comaps hype. It sucks anywhere that’s not a megalopolis. Here wego is far far better (for me).
Organic maps found on F Droid, download the state or area you want so is available offline. Won’t do traffic obviously, but gets you a to be.
I think CoMaps is the better choice.
CoMaps was founded in 2025 by former Organic Maps contributors. The Organic Maps codebase was forked due to concerns about the project’s governance, transparency, and the potential for shareholder profit at the expense of the community. The CoMaps project was created, focusing on privacy, performance and community.
Oh dang! I didn’t realize! Thanks for bringing that up good sir.
Last time I checked, you can use GPS without carrier. GPS, and GNSS in general, is separate set of satellites. With cellular It’s just more precise since initial triangulation facilitated by cell towers. I recently was mid 5 hours flight and was able to see my location in google maps despite being in flight mode
*Cycling, but yes. I use CoMaps.
Hopefully they can be overhauling UI to be much better. Would be cool if they made calls to wider community for UI people to come in to help out
Ultimate Lemming:
- Cycles only, detects cars
- Uses CoMaps
- Uses Archlinux?
Im just jokin with ya 😉
Uses Archlinux?
secureblue :)
2 and 3 check out with me, but 1st point is public transport only. Preferably trains + trams.
Although buses have the advantage that I can sit in the front where I can see the road, and they also tend to be less illuminated so I can see outside at night.
I wish there were dark carriages. Coach buses will have a few blue LEDs near the floor, but a train has to come with full sun worth of light.My city has no public transport and if you tried to bike from one end to the other youd be killed crossing a 6 lane interstate lol. Not to mention it would take you 10 hours.
Which sucks but I would never use public transport even if we had it. But it does suck for those who cant afford cars.
but I would never use public transport even if we had it.
Why is that?
Its not for me, and im in a place out of town. Public transport wouldnt work here.
Public transport pretty much always works everywhere that isn’t a country town with like 5 people living there, and at that point you could just walk or ride around.
If there is low demand you can start with a small community bus, then increase the amount of buses and lines. Increase the size of the bus. Then maybe build a tram line etc…
I’m not saying your govenment will do this but it is almost always possible and faster, safer and more comfortable. Unless you really enjoy driving or prefer the privacy that it offers (debatable but still somewhat valid) in which case public transport and other viable alternatives to driving is still the only real way to reduce traffic for drivers.
Your pain is so very relatable, pal 😢
I’ve only met a handful of people that don’t question it and just accept my personal choices. One person even tried stepping in when someone asked for my email to tell them I didn’t have one. I do have email, but the gesture was still nice. Those are the ones worth keeping around.
My struggle is to not get bitter/angry at these situations. I have to keep reminding myself that there are about a billion other ways in which I am ignorant of things that are equally important. And that just a few years ago, I too, was completely on the big tech bandwagon (but only reluctantly so).
My struggle is to not get bitter/angry at these situations.
That’s why I’m complaining online instead! /s
The best thing you can do is just prepare yourself for situations you might end up in, and practice your responses. When someone asked why I don’t have a carrier, I instinctively said “Privacy reasons” and then immediately realized what was about to come. It takes practice, even if you mess up a couple times.
Agreed!
oh wow. mine actually is airplane mode to save battery. TIL.
I made a website whose entire existence is dedicated to my “profile” (myname.com). So when someone asks for contact info, I send them there. It gives them the opportunity to contact me using their preferred method, as well as being able to easily find it in the future if they lose it or I change it.
It has:
- phone # (obv could be omitted)
- link to Signal
- link to ArcaneChat
- link to Matrix
- link to SimpleX
- my blog
- Mastodon
- Steam
- Zelle
- etc.
It’s also the first link that comes up, or one of the first, for most people, if they Google me. I also carry basically a business card, but without the business, with QR code and domain.
This sounds like a great idea but I do worry about crawlers scraping this gold mine of personal details. Do you put the site behind a password that you include on the business card or something?
No, I don’t consider any of this to be private or valuable information.
I also carry basically a business card, but without the business, with QR code and domain.
I wanted to do this and only put my contact for my SimpleX Chat, but good business cards are expensive!
Especially if you’re looking for that perfect shade of white.
Let’s see Paul Allen’s website
they’re embossed, aren’t they?
I got 250 of them from VistaPrint in 2019 for <$50 and still have a bunch left.
E: just checked and they are $18 for 50
What about it you need to call a business like a bank, restaurant, etc?
I don’t. I go in person. If I explicitly have to then I can borrow someone’s phone or use a burner phone, but that’s never happened.
Edit: Another option is phone booths, but those are becoming increasingly less common.
Do you run into issues with 2 factor verification? I’ve noticed many services forcing people to use it and only allowing phone numbers
Since I avoid using privacy invasive services, the services I do use all have an option for TOTP as a form of 2FA. If I explicitly need 2FA via SMS, I can pay for a VoIP number.
I can pay for a VoIP number.
Have you done this recently? My experience is almost no 2FA/verification services will accept a VoIP number anymore
Have you done this recently?
I’ve never had the need to, thankfully.
My experience is almost no 2FA/verification services will accept a VoIP number anymore
That’s unfortunate. In those cases, I would either go without 2FA (since it’s the service’s fault for being insecure at that point) or don’t use the service altogether.
Thanks for the info. I hadn’t considered this as an option but it does seem pretty viable at this point.
phone is the new cigarettes for me. I was a long hair but never smoked. People would ask me for a smoke and I would say I don’t smoke and I would usually get a glare. Like I secretly had them on me. Just the other day someone asked if I could call their phone because I lost it and I said I don’t carry my pone when I walk the dog because im so close to home (I do not). Businesses want me to do something with an app and Im like I don’t use a smartphone (I have one for work but since I would not get one for personal reasons as far as im concerned I don’t have one because I don’t want to use it like that. I will use it as a camera but not to scan qr codes).
I really like this analogy, but the biggest one to me is the intentionally addictive nature of the media and information it provides. Like the specifically targeted nicotine hits smoking provides designed to be addictive, phones sooth, stimulate, and distract in new and yet similar ways leveraging cognitive biases and physiology. They also fuck up your mind and body in screwing sleep cycles, changing your attention threshold, and probably more. Might not be as bad as cancer, but they still have an impact.
Privacy but using public WiFi?..
The threat of public wifi isn’t as big of a deal as it used to be. Before widespread VPNs and when internet traffic was unencrypted, anything you transmitted could be read by someone else on the network. But nowadays all an eavesdropper would see is what websites you’re connecting to (without a VPN) or the VPN if you are using one. Happy to be corrected if I’m mistaken though
My devices distrust any network, and I always use a VPN. It’s obviously not my first choice, but it can still be done safe enough.
If the wifi has firewall blocking non web ports, do you have a solution for those cases?
Mullvad VPN and others have “obfuscation” methods to mask your traffic as regular web traffic. If those don’t work, I can always connect to a proxy or Tor as a plan B, or see if any other Wi-Fi networks are available. I’ve never had this be an issue, but there are certainly options available.
I would not be comfortable not having mobile signal. Public WiFi is not going to cut it. Even a 0.00001% chance that I’d miss an important call from my partner is no bueno for me.
Even a 0.00001% chance that I’d miss an important call from my partner is no bueno for me.
Yikes. I can’t imagine having this level of anxiety about being out of contact.
I wouldn’t say it’s an anxiety, I’d say it’s a cost-benefit analysis I’ve done and decided that having cell service to catch a potential emergency call is more important to me than that one extra level of privacy like OP. Hell, I don’t want to miss a call even if it isn’t an emergency. I love my partner and want to talk to them any chance I can get; if they’re calling I want to answer.
I’m happy for you.
I think you dramatically overestimate both the cost of missing a call, and the benefit of not missing a call.
That said, it sure is convenient.
I think you dramatically don’t understand how different other people are compared to you. Either that, or you lack empathy. I can’t think of any other reasons why you would distrust and dismiss their reasoning.
Hot takes here chunkystyles.
You really got me thinking about how some people just love each other so much that they would move mountains to make sure they don’t miss a single text message, and that’s completely normal, and not at all anxious behavior.
That missed text message or call could be the one where they call for help and you don’t get it and oh god what if I could have helped and oh god what if I didn’t get a chance to say goodbye?
Sure hope this person never drives or rides a bike anywhere. Probably fine if they do text and drive though. Because of the love.
You’re just driving my point home.
There’s really no reason for you to act like this. This kind of snark doesn’t endear you to anyone and it doesn’t help good faith conversion.
I think you drastically underestimate how much I love my partner.
No doubt.
I’m sure you’ve got multiple backup carriers and a satellite phone with you at all times to ensure that 99.99999 uptime, which translates to about 4 seconds of downtime a year.
But surely you weren’t exaggerating that part too.
Of course the %age I used was an exaggeration. Sorry, was this conversation being driven by the assumption that it wasn’t? I exaggerated to make my point.
And yet you decided to continue this thread by saying that you weren’t exaggerating.
You can still purchase an external cellular hotspot, which will be more private than a phone carrier.
Woo hoo! Something new to be paranoid about!
Would using an old phone as an external cellular hotspot be almost just as private as using an application specific device?
I just looked at the video and wondered that since there kinda expensive (also I wouldn’t be able to use the calyx hotspots since I don’t live in the US)
There’s a bigger security risk because of a larger attack surface, and naturally phones can collect a lot more data than hotspots, but it depends on your threat model.
I guess it could be a decent consideration if I can find a way to anonymously get a sim, not really much point otherwise.
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Jup. I made that conclusion too.
However one time two friends asked me about secure messengers and I reluctantly gave up that I used Signal. Since then everyone in my closer friend circle suddenly had Signal.
Hello, wife?
If you are an old programmer/geek young people will dismiss you even though they don’t even know what a folder is. They think they are IT experts because they can apply the latest instagram filters to their photos.
even though they don’t even know what a folder is
Someone once tried sharing a file with me by copy pasting the file path as if it were a URL
I generally keep my privacy habits to myself, but if someone asks I will tell them. It’s always better to try with a chance of getting them interested than not to try at all.
I have shared and exposed my close friends to it and they use signal with me
People seem to think that a phone automatically comes with a carrier and that it’ll stop working if you don’t have one.
Not all phones have a carrier, but 99% of them need one if you want to make normal phone calls.
How do you use signal without a phone number? I last time i installed, i couldn’t use it without a phone number. I tried virtual numbers and couldn’t get an account for signal
VoIP numbers should work, but if they don’t you can instead use a burner phone. There’s no way to register without a phone number yet.
How much further away before we get signing up without phone number?
I can’t say. It’s on their roadmap, but there’s no official announcements yet.
How are you using Signal without a phone number? - asking cause I genuinely would love to do so!
I think it is not required anymore
No, you still need a phone number. IIRC it’s on the roadmap, but not a priority.
It’s a honeypot, so of course making it so anyone can use it, even without a phone number, even with a mobile device, is not a priority.
if it’s a honeypot, why would you make it easier to use anonymously?
You can sign up using a VoIP number or a burner phone.
So then you still need to give them a phone number to get texted on signal?
Signal requires a phone number to register, but I can hand out my username without giving them the phone number I registered with.
You might want to look into Matrix.
It doesn’t require any of that bullshit.
if the number you registered with eventually gets recycled to someone who then uses it for Signal, will that affect your account?
If that person registers with Signal then this guy loses his account and username. All new messages sent to his username will get sent to the new person’s phone but the new person won’t have any of the history.
My work around was keeping the phone number but not on my phone so I never lose it like that.
Specifically I ported it to Google voice where its just parked with no monthly cost (there was a 1 time port cost). I’m not logged in to voice ever so the anti-privacy of google doesn’t apply. Any text messages I receive get forwarded to a non google email (but thats few and far between).
I’m sure there are other similar options out there, but I did what I knew and its been fine.
I can’t fathom that Signal is not a honeypot.
Back when I tried to register, not only did they want a phone number (which usually links to IRL KYC stuff) but they also wanted me to complete a google captcha that took different metrics (canvas, etc) of my device.
Why is that needed? They say it’s to reduce spam, I just don’t believe it it.
Not only that, I can’t register using a linux system. I simply MUST register with a mobile device (that I will likely have on me) that can potentially track me through the cellular modem in the device and also likely has listening devices inside the device and a camera attached that is very hard to cover (because it’s embedded into the glass and and covering it with anything messes with the swipe up function).
No organization would create something that is so incredibly hostile to people who don’t want mobile phones and don’t want numbers unless they were a honeypot. I even think that Signal was created in a large part to try to siphon popularity away from XMPP before it could reach mass adoption.
Signal is not for people who categorically do not want numbers or mobile phones. They’ve never said that.
So it’s still yes, you do have to have a phone number.
Just keep in mind that the purpose of Airplane Mode is to prevent transmission. Your phone might still be receiving signals like GPS and WiFi SSIDs, which it can record to be transmitted later.
If you really don’t want to be tracked, leave it home.
Or own your device with a custom rom.
Wait, you need a phone # for signal…i thought.
Also, this method only works for people in massive cities (1mil+). Less than that good luck getting wifi. That is too much of a massive convenience for little gain, if they want to find you, they will. They’ll just tap into your family or your neighbors phone.
Wait, you need a phone # for signal…i thought.
You do. You can sign up with a VoIP number or a burner phone.
Also, this method only works for people in massive cities (1mil+). Less than that good luck getting wifi.
I don’t need to stay constantly connected. Even when Wi-Fi is available, I rarely have the need to use it.
That is too much of a massive convenience for little gain, if they want to find you, they will.
People have different threat models, so it’s not for everyone, but it’s certainly worth it for me.
They’ll just tap into your family or your neighbors phone.
And find what? Encrypted Signal messages?
Say you get lost or run out of gas.
GPS works without cellular, and I cycle instead of driving.
Gonna a call 911 every time that happens?
I can borrow someone else’s phone or keep an emergency phone switched off until it’s needed.
What if youre on the way to a friend’s house and they call and tell you they have to cancel or they need you to pick up something for them?
Stuff happens. If I really need to stay connected, I can use an external hotspot.
Yes, I lived before cell phones were a thing. But I cant imagine many people would put up with you.
If it’s that big of a deal that someone won’t associate with me, that is entirely their problem. It’s rarely ever an inconvenience for them.
So everyone you interact with uses signal, and no other Google apps, they all have rooted phones and no smart tvs etc? You avoid all traffic cameras and ring doorbells/other people’s phone cameras/microphones?
I find this hard to believe, or you are a real life 007!
Also im not being an ass if it sounded like it, im genuinely intrigued by this. I would be a hermit if I lived like that.
So everyone you interact with uses signal, and no other Google apps, they all have rooted phones and no smart tvs etc? You avoid all traffic cameras and ring doorbells/other people’s phone cameras/microphones?
Privacy is not about absolutism. You do what you can within your threat model to stay protected.
Sure I get that. But youre going to a lot of trouble to not actually be very secure in the grand scheme. At most, you are making the advertisers .0000001 cent less per year vs if you used big tech junk. Unless youre convincing 10,000 others to step back into 1991, its not making a difference. (Im all for that if you have the time machine btw!)
Hey man if you got time and energy for it, keep on it! I truly like interacting with such different people on here, its awesome.
At most, you are making the advertisers .0000001 cent less per year vs if you used big tech junk. Unless youre convincing 10,000 others to step back into 1991, its not making a difference.
It actually makes a much bigger difference than you think. I remember a site that showed how much advertisers made off of you while you’ve been viewing, but I can’t seem to find it. They make dollars off of you every second. Ad blocking alone has made so much of a difference that YouTube has tried intentionally slowing down their service to ad block users as a way to discourage it. I have no better way to show you how big of an impact it actually makes. Even in your own life, using a password manager can save yourself from getting hacked. This thread isn’t really for fighting about why privacy is important, but there’s plenty of other sources talking about it.
I can see that i guess. I wont use the internet without ad blockers.
Good guides, ive read a few of those. The journey is slow! But I figure as long as I have a Samsung android phone, im screwed privacy wise even if all my pcs run linux. So its either live with a neutered linux phone or this. Maybe the lightphone would work but it would have to actually work with all the banking, airplane, and hotel apps that are all proprietary and usually require Google play store. They got us pinned down man. Unless you live in a cave and never venture out.
So its either live with a neutered linux phone or this. Maybe the lightphone would work but it would have to actually work with all the banking, airplane, and hotel apps that are all proprietary and usually require Google play store.
GrapheneOS is a hardened version of Android that removes the privacy invasive elements. You can still optionally install Google Play Services if you need to install apps from there, but it runs in a sandboxed environment so it doesn’t have the same invasive permissions.
I think you’re a bit too stuck in the “immediate access to everyone” way of things
if I get lost, having cell service won’t help me, because I have GPS on my phone that can show me where to go. and if I’m lost in the backcountry… I already don’t have cell service lol
if my car breaks down, I’ll wait until somebody comes along and ask for help
if I’m on my way somewhere and somebody wants me to cancel, then I’ll get the message when I stop for a coffee or I’ll show up and then go home. if they want me to pick something up last minute… it doesn’t get picked up on my way over. not a big deal.
I have cell service. have for years. but the more time goes on, the less I find it necessary. and the more anecdotal evidence I have to support that.
important note: I do not have children or family members in vulnerable condition
I dont care about that so much, but I dont live in a place where wifi is everywhere (and at a lot of places you have to pay to use it or buy something)
I just feel like people who live this way must lead a more solitary life. Which is fine. But it doesnt work for me. Those who travel and /or travel for work couldn’t do that without the current tech, its just whats expected unfortunately.
Also, you’ve never driven anywhere remote if you think your car breaks down and people will come help. Ever been in the eastern part of Montana? Didn’t think so. Youll be waiting for 5 hours before you see a car, if you dont get hauled into a meth lab by thay time.
so I get a temporary phone if I’m expected to be in a higher risk environment… not really a big deal
I’m not frequently in that situation, so that is an exceptional circumstance. if I break down on the way to Algonquin Park or on the north end, there’s enough traffic that I won’t die from it.
A life where I have to consider buying burner phones when im going to travel definitely doesnt fit my lifestyle, and im on lemmy! You are one in a trillion human.
I’m really not.
