• jsomae@lemmy.ml
    0·
    12 天前

    in case you’re wondering, here “white”=“majority,” not the definition used politically in most countries. Retro-etymology being “blank,” or “standard,” like a sheet of paper without details. In Japan, for instance, white people are ethnically japanese. I point this out because in Israel the majority would not be considered white in many places in the world; Jews would elsewhere be considered a diverse conglomerate of ethnicities.

    I normally advocate for terms like “racial supremacist” or “ethno-supremacist” in a context like this because people don’t get nearly as defensive when they hear this, but white supremacy is catchy as a term I guess and so it perseveres.

    • Manmoth@lemmy.ml
      0·
      2 天前

      white supremacy is catchy as a term I guess

      It’s a way to virtue signal, misdirect the anger and get clicks

      • jsomae@lemmy.ml
        0·
        12 天前

        That’s actually not a problem. White europeans aren’t more capable of ethno-supremacy than other races. (Putting aside whether Ashkenazi are white in that sense at all – presumably not, since part of the reason Israel was funded was to get the Jews out of europe.) The problem is that Israel is an ethno-supremacist settler-colonist state. If you removed the Ashkenazi from Israel, the Sefardi for instance, or Mezrahi (who unarguably don’t resemble white europeans) would continue the settler-colonism on their own. They don’t actually need the Ashkenazi Jews for the state to perpetuate.

        • Grapho@lemmy.ml
          0·
          12 天前

          Whiteness is a malleable social construct that is entirely dependent on who’s passing as the default of settler society. The fact that Ashkenazis were not considered white in 1930s Germany has as little bearing on their whiteness today as Italians being considered people of color in 19th century USA.

          • jsomae@lemmy.ml
            0·
            12 天前

            I’m not talking about 1930’s Germany, I’m talking about the USA today lol. But yeah, it’s not relevant in Israel – that’s my point.

            • Grapho@lemmy.ml
              0·
              12 天前

              Yeah, I seem to have misread you, apologies. Not gonna edit the comment because it kind of says the same thing from a different angle.

      • IttihadChe@lemmy.mlEnglish
        0·
        12 天前

        Aren’t most Israeli Jews not European but Middle Eastern?

        The problem isn’t that they are white Europeans at all, even if it’s true they are, the problem is that they are a settler colonial project.

    • Farhad@freefree.psOP
      0·
      12 天前

      @Coding4Fun

      It’s not about the state Israel, it’s about letting them get away with any crime they desire.

      Israel have destroyed any chance for a w state solution, the only viable option left is a one state solution similar to that of South Africa, but it’s not going to happen because of the power christian Zionists in the US and the rest of the world.

      I honestly have no idea how this madness can be stopped without destroying the biggest religious cult in the west.

      • anarchiddy@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        0·
        12 天前

        Much of what they’ve done in Palestine has been officially sanctioned and co-opted by western powers - it isn’t at at all about the legality of what they are doing

    • davel@lemmy.ml
      0·
      12 天前

      Reporter: [REDACTED]
      Reason: Advocating for genocide

      zionists not conflating genocide and the dissolution of a state challenge (impossible)

  • rational_lib@lemmy.world
    0·
    12 天前

    And how many Palestinians in Gaza support forced expulsion of Israelis?

    Everyone has infinite sympathy for their own tribe and infinite hostility for those that attack them. News at 11.

    It’s funny how the guy who paid Elon Musk for a blue checkmark seems to think the problem is people not hating the other tribe enough.

    • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
      0·
      12 天前

      "How many Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto support forced expulsion of Germans?

      Everyone has infinite sympathy for their own tribe and infinite hostility for those that attack them. News at 11."

      • rational_lib@lemmy.world
        0·
        6 天前

        The fact that you think I’m here to tout Jews is proof of how lost this whole struggle is. Being right has no ethnicity. Nor does being wrong. If you disagree, you’re on the same side as the people putting Jews and Palestinians alike in ghettos.

        • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
          0·
          6 天前

          The fact that you think I’m here to tout Jews is proof of how lost this whole struggle is.

          I’m not even sure what this sentence is supposed to mean. But what I think you’re here to do is spread smug, above-it-all, both-sidesism about the must brutally one sided genocide of our era. And stating that you would have done the same thing during the holocaust

          • rational_lib@lemmy.world
            0·
            6 天前

            If there was a Jewish person saying the problem wasn’t Hitler or the Nazis but the German people, yeah I’d absolutely do the “both sides” thing and criticize that guy. Because that’s no different than what the Nazis say, just applied to different people.

        • Grapho@lemmy.ml
          0·
          12 天前

          You can, the moderation logs are public. I don’t know how to access them from the app but on web you just click the three dots and “See comment moderation”

      • rational_lib@lemmy.world
        0·
        6 天前

        Ok I wrote that a while ago before I went on vacation, not at all sure why it was deleted. But are you asking me for numbers to validate tribalism? Just look around.

      • rational_lib@lemmy.world
        0·
        6 天前

        If you are defending a post that says it’s in a certain people’s nature to be racist and violent, then you have the same exact opinion of the most right wing Zionist settlers, with just a tweak on the ethnicity.

        At some point you’ll realize you’re fighting on the same team. Pro Palestine zealots and Zionist zealots both want endless war. The few people who want peace for everyone have been excluded from the conversation almost entirely. Or as in my case, blocked/deleted.

        • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
          0·
          6 天前

          “Pro Germany zealots and Jewish zealots both want endless war. The few people who want peace for everyone have been excluded from the conversation almost entirely.”

  • Richat@lemmy.ml
    0·
    13 天前

    Israelis don’t consider themselves White. Saying that the problem is “White Supremacy” shows that you’re looking at the problem through a lens that is very conditioned for Western politics

    • Farhad@freefree.psOP
      0·
      13 天前

      @Richat the foundation of Zionism is in white supremacy under the cover of Judaism.

      Zionism is a western problem z it was created in central Europe, just like fascism with the same kind of mindset.

      One was about Arian people, the other about Jewish people, both with the same disregard to others and the right to exterminate their opponents with no mercy.

    • CommanderCloon@lemmy.ml
      0·
      12 天前

      lol

      These brought tens of thousands of Jews from remote parts of Ethiopia, who had suffered from religious persecution, famine and civil wars.

      Yet, when they arrived in Israel, these distinctive people faced appalling discrimination, racism and a lack of empathy for their hardships in Ethiopia and during their journey to Israel.

      first article on google btw

      We can talk about it from a lens of Western politics. Because it is western politics. Because Israel is literally European colonialism

      • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
        0·
        12 天前

        They also outright refused to consider Ugandan Jews as Jews, while the rabbinic conferences all over the world had no problem with it.

      • Grapho@lemmy.ml
        0·
        12 天前

        You can take the settler out of Amerikkka, but you can’t take Amerikkka out the settler

    • IttihadChe@lemmy.mlEnglish
      0·
      12 天前

      More Jews live outside of Israel than within it.

      Opposing Israel and Israelis is not the same as opposing Jews.

      It’s dangerous to conflate all Jews with the genocidal Israel as you are doing here, but I believe you know that already and do it intentionally.

      • मुक्त@lemmy.ml
        0·
        12 天前

        I believe you have already seen headlines of the cold blooded murder of a jewish couple in the US.

        I don’t think hate is limited to one or two countries in Nazism 2.0. It is global this time.

    • CommanderCloon@lemmy.ml
      0·
      13 天前

      We need to reject those who blame Jews.

      Not for optics, and not because it would get us in trouble to be associated with those people, but because Jews as a whole are not responsible and should not be held responsible for the actions of Zionists – zionists who are represented by a lot of Jews, but also by a lot of christians, atheists etc. who should not be blamed any less for their ethnicity/religion, just as Jews should not be blamed for the actions of zionists.

  • kittenzrulz123@lemmy.blahaj.zone
    0·
    12 天前

    Its not even a country, its a military occupation zone and the people a colonialists. So yeah what a shocker that people in the ZOZ (Zionist Occupation Zone) are extremely racist. Im in the ZOZ rn (long story, my parents thought it would “turn me into a Zionist”) and yesterday they celebrated the brutal occupation of east Jerusalem. In that parade people waved “Israeli” flags happily alongside Kahanism flags, even Zehut showed up (far-right “Libertarian” Zionists).

  • MTK@lemmy.world
    0·
    12 天前

    This is not new, extremists gain power, they are then making everything they can to stay in power while they slowly turn anyone they can to their side. They use the education system, political systems, laws and the media. Considering that Netanyahu has been in power since 2009 he has literally shaped the political and moral ideology of a significant part of the population. Imagine being 10 yo at 2009, by the time you van vote all you ever knew was Netanyahu.

    At the end of the day, an adult that is calling for genocide is responsible for their opinions and actions, but this is how a situation where a majority of a country if genocidal happens, with slow, steady and intentional manipulation of the public.

    Netanyahu and his terrorist goons ARE the problem, but at this point removing them from power is just a small part of the solution.

    As a kid I always wandered how people can truly think a genocide is a good idea, as an adult I am sad to see that it really is that easy, it really can start with just the wrong people gaining power.

    And just to be fair, this is very much true about Palestine as well. While the situation is completely different, they too have been under a genocidal and terroristic regime since 2006 and many (probably most) would answer similarly to such a questionnaire about Israelis and Jews. Of course Palestine have had the short end of the stick for all of those years while Israel got to become a developed country.

    It’s just sad to see how the people in power just fuck everyone around them, no one wins, no one is happy, all you get is death, hate and destruction, and of course the reason for all of this: Money, religion, power.

    • Grapho@lemmy.ml
      0·
      12 天前

      They did not “gain power” with Netanyahu. Israel has been a genocidal colonial project from day one and had close collaboration with Nazi Germany before the Holocaust.

  • Kyrgizion@lemmy.world
    0·
    13 天前

    Same thing in the USA. Trump is a symptom. He could drop dead tomorrow and somehow take half of the admin with him, and the problem would still be there. The underlying problem is that roughly 1/3rd of your population is frothing at the mouth to slaughter another 1/3rd while the final third stand by and watch silently. This is not something you can fix with elections alone.

    • Farhad@freefree.psOP
      0·
      13 天前

      @Kyrgizion exactly.

      This is the problem I have with blue MAGAts on bluesky. They are so focused on Trump and the BS story of Russia causing the problem in their society, they ignore the massive army of evangelical Christian Zionist movement that got Bush and Trump into power and control most of the media in the country.

      It’s the pre programmed mindset Hollywood worked so hard for decades to get into people’s heads that the problem is always because of one bad guy not the movement behind it

      • idiomaddict@lemmy.world
        0·
        12 天前

        If trump were the problem, that means that other republicans would fall in line behind a more centrist candidate. However, that means they don’t actually stand for their own beliefs and that they’d also fall into line behind a more extreme right candidate, of which we have plenty in the line of succession.

        There’s something somehow even more hateable about a politician who’s not actually fascist themselves, but who will gladly support them.

        • Farhad@freefree.psOP
          0·
          12 天前

          @idiomaddict

          “There’s something somehow even more hateable about a politician who’s not actually fascist themselves, but who will gladly support them.”

          I fully and wholeheartedly supporting that statement.

          Those enablers are far worse than those fascist themselves.

          It’s just sickening to watch them sell their sole to the devil for fame and fortune.

      • Kalysta@lemm.ee
        0·
        12 天前

        Sigh. Bluesky was so much better before blue maga showed up. The shitposting was top notch and people were allergic to discourse.

        I miss those days.

    • spooky2092@lemmy.blahaj.zone
      0·
      13 天前

      while the final third stand by and watch silently.

      And according to some on here, we shouldn’t blame any of the individuals in that final third because it’s not fair to put the blame on them for the shit they stand by and tacitly support or something.

      It’s amazing how far some people will go to excuse the actions of those who are content to watch fascism take hold and murder it’s fellow citizens while doing nothing about it.

      • Christian@lemmy.mlEnglish
        0·
        12 天前

        I will excuse a lot of those people here in the US.

        In my own case, I am physically disabled at the moment watching the people taking care of me and providing me transportation be horribly overworked to the point where it is painful to watch. What should I be doing with my time? Should I judge my caretakers for not making some sort of time? Is it inexcusable that I am not pressuring them to do something?

        I’d like to know actually what I can do, because I’m not happy with where things are. You suggest it’s a moral failure but I literally don’t know what action I can take that would not be judged a moral failure.

        Maybe my situation is unique in some ways, but it’s not that unique in the idea that for a lot of people, finding more time could cost the livlihoods of both them and their dependents. Maybe the people you meet in your day-to-day life can easily find time to organize, etc at no significant cost, but the majority of the remaining population are oppressed themselves, just in a less severe way. Every family is isolated, and when you are isolated with a precarious livlihood, setting aside time for something comes at a cost, so is a serious choice. The obvious answer is to try to become less isolated, but that requires setting aside time without guaranteed payoff. It’s easy to judge people for not doing that when there’s no potential cost to your own dependents.

        Most people here are living day-to-day trying to cling to what little joys they have. You can come up with laundry lists of ways they are wasting their time and money, but those wastes are hard to give up for someone living day-to-day. Maybe I’m misunderstanding something, but decrying the inaction from the majority of our population is shifting blame to the powerless.

        • spooky2092@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          0·
          12 天前

          I’m sorry to hear that you’re disabled friend, I have a few friends that are fairly disabled as well, so while I can’t understand your situation, I can at least sympathize with what you may be going through.

          I’d like to know actually what I can do, because I’m not happy with where things are. You suggest it’s a moral failure but I literally don’t know what action I can take that would not be judged a moral failure.

          Being housebound definitely limits your options, but there are ways to vote early (which takes much less time and would likely not impact your caretakers as much if planned ahead of time) and absentee which would allow you to still vote even when the cards are stacked against you. I know that those options are not universal, but they’ve at least been available in the couple states I’ve lived in and the ones my friends live in (which, is still only like a half dozen total).

          Maybe I’m misunderstanding something, but decrying the inaction from the majority of our population is shifting blame to the powerless.

          See, I don’t see it as shifting blame to the powerless, I see it as calling out the culpability of those who are powerless because they choose not to exercise the little power they have. I understand there are quite a few who are able to vote on paper are unable to vote due to circumstances in life. But, speaking from personal experience, I’ve also known plenty of people who choose to do nothing while complaining about the state of the world or their life while they passively watch time slip away. I want to make sure you understand I’m in no way suggesting you are a part of this group, but I’ve had this argument with blood family for over a decade until they passed as well as with many acquaintances over my life. Most were the type you see on lemmy that would rather not vote if there isn’t a perfect candidate on the ballot, even if there was one candidate that they agreed with the majority of items.

          So it may be personal experience coloring my opinion, but I see nothing positive coming from not acknowledging that there is a full third of our country that chooses not to participate in the process when that inaction is how we get shitheads like trump in office. I’m a firm believer of ‘inaction is still a choice’, so I’m not going to let people who chose not to participate have a pass without commenting on it. Because a fraction of those people participating could have changed where we are today and prevented letting the American Nazi Party from running rampant on the people and their rights.

          • Christian@lemmy.mlEnglish
            0·
            12 天前

            Most were the type you see on lemmy that would rather not vote if there isn’t a perfect candidate on the ballot, even if there was one candidate that they agreed with the majority of items.

            Okay, I thought we were discussing something wholly different. I worked in Dearborn and we all had friends who lost relatives as our country refused to stop sending arms. One of my best students completely fell off after losing a lot of her extended family and it was painful to watch.

            But you don’t need to have personal experience with someone affected to be outraged. It’s a line some people are unwilling to cross. I am one of them. Downplaying that as they “would rather not vote if there isn’t a perfect candidate on the ballot” is either wholly disingenuous or a complete absence of empathy. A candidate I have “agreed with the majority of items” but disagreed on the morality of supplying weapons used to commit a genocide is one I will not vote for.

            If the president is aware that he is sending weapons killing innocents and still signs off to send more, and one of those bombs kills someone I love, would you blame me for not voting for him? If not, why would you blame someone who empathizes with me for making the same decision?

            The democrats did not have to support this, and would have won the election if not for this complete moral bankruptcy. Blaming nonvoters is shifting blame from the powerful to the powerless.

          • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
            0·
            12 天前

            Most were the type you see on lemmy that would rather not vote if there isn’t a perfect candidate on the ballot, even if there was one candidate that they agreed with the majority of items.

            I have trouble taking the judgment about “lesser evil” seriously of someone who describes “actively aiding and abetting the most brutal genocide of the era” as “not perfect”

            Because a fraction of those people participating could have changed where we are today and prevented letting the American Nazi Party from running rampant on the people and their rights.

            And allow the American Nazi Party (but Blue) to run rampant on people and their rights

            • spooky2092@lemmy.blahaj.zone
              0·
              12 天前

              And allow the American Nazi Party (but Blue) to run rampant on people and their rights

              BoTh SiDeS aRe ThE sAmE arguments are why people don’t take you seriously. It’s almost hilarious how arguments like this devalue just how awful the right is, when you’re comparing concrete domestic trans, POC and intellectual attacks from a party that supports Israel to the party that just supporta Israel.

              I would laugh if I was sure you didn’t actually drink the flavoraide.

              • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
                0·
                12 天前

                I don’t think you can talk about other people devaluing how awful things are when you’re trying to pass off “actively participating in the most brutal genocide of the era” as “not perfect”. Also when you’re trying to say that only the lives of domestic citizens are “concrete”, it really sounds like you just don’t consider foreigners fully human. The democrats absolutely support killing trans people, PoCs, and intellectuals, they just support doing it in Gaza. The number of people being killed domestically by the right, as terrible as it is, is not even a rounding error compared to the number of people, even just LGBT people, being killed in Gaza as a bipartisan policy. And yet only the lives of the first matter, and caring about the lives of the latter is “drinking the flavour aid”

              • ZeroHora@lemmy.mlEnglish
                0·
                11 天前

                when you’re comparing concrete domestic trans, POC and intellectual attacks from a party that supports Israel to the party that just supporta Israel.

                just supports Israel. Oh boy.

                People in Gaza has so less value for you than the American citizen?

                • spooky2092@lemmy.blahaj.zone
                  0·
                  11 天前

                  People in Gaza has so less value for you than the American citizen?

                  Of course I care about the Gazan people, that’s why I didn’t want the “glass them all” party to win. But because they’re not good, we let fucking awful go for it instead. One side has a chance to be reasoned with, and the other is no chance in hell. Inaction chose the no chance in hell option.

                  I’m not going to lie and say there was a good choice available. But we chose greater violence while preaching for no violence. So I don’t know what to tell you, other than sometimes you have to compromise to engage in harm mitigation otherwise you can end up with harm maximization.

      • CommanderCloon@lemmy.ml
        0·
        13 天前

        It’s funny how this comment can be read by two opposing sides who would still agree with it:

        • Democrats endorse genocide, and people who supported them during Kamala’s campaign are supporting this
        • People who didn’t vote for Kamala support Trump and his human rights violations, since they didn’t vote for Kamala

        I personally strongly disagree with one of those statements but both can be interpreted 100% in agreement with what you wrote

        • spooky2092@lemmy.blahaj.zone
          0·
          12 天前

          Democrats endorse genocide, and people who supported them during Kamala’s campaign are supporting this

          I’d love to see you make that argument, considering the ‘did not vote’ crowd would be much closer to supporting this than the democrat vote.

          • BrainInABox@lemmy.mlEnglish
            0·
            12 天前

            “the people who didn’t vote for genocide are actually closer to supporting genocide then the people who explicitly voted for genocide”

  • HiddenLayer555@lemmy.mlEnglish
    0·
    12 天前

    Remember that the Holocaust had majority support in Germany too.

    Saying Israel is like Nazi Germany is absolutely not a metaphor. There are more similarities than there are differences, they just switched up which ethnic group is the target.

  • kreskin@lemmy.world
    0·
    13 天前

    82% of israelis want to ethnicly cleanse every gazan, which is a crime.
    56% want to eject every non jewish israeli citizen.
    And about half want to outright murder every palestinian regardless of age or guilt of anything. Its a country chock full of violent terrorists and a whole lot of fans of murder of innocents. Those are much worse statistics than nazi germany had. Just 18% of Israelis belong somewhere besides chained in a cell.

    But dont get caught saying anything bad about zionism or having a political opinion that runs counter to Israel’s will. Then youd be an antisemite, which is worse than being a war criminal, evidently.

  • Saleh@feddit.org
    0·
    13 天前

    Schrödingers only Democracy in the Middle East.

    Government is legitimate because it enacts the majority will of the people, but the government statements and actions are not representative of the majority of the people…

    Unfortunately i am afraid we will see mostly the same shit like in post war Germany when everything is over. Denial, pretending to not having known, claiming to have been mislead, just following orders…

      • photonic_sorcerer@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        0·
        13 天前

        “Palestinians voted for Hamas” is such a braindead statement IMO. Yeah, they did, twenty years ago, after which Hamas promptly murdered the opposition and never held another fair election.