Good day all, in response to the increase in transphobia we’ve experience since the For Women Scotland v Scotland Supreme Court decision, seemingly a mix of genuine malice and people tripping up with a topic they’re unfamiliar with, I’ve taken the initiative to write some guidelines on how to engage in the topic and clearing up some common misconceptions.

https://guide.feddit.uk/politics/transphobia.html

I’m not all that happy with them, I want something more comprehensive but my time has been pretty taxed lately and I don’t want my perfectionism to stand in the way of having these out. If there’s any issues, glaring omissions or whatnot, then please let me know or make a pull request here.

  • flamingos-cant@feddit.ukOP
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    13 days ago

    I don’t really think it’s fair equivalence to make. I think it would be transphobic to claim someone is less intelligent or should be penalised in society, although I am probably approaching this with a philosophical/theological view rather than how people should be treated.

    I don’t really like the idea of being told how to think about things. I think this is a slight step too far, if it means forcing someone to agree with something they’re not comfortable with agreeing with.

    This is a social discussion forum not a linguist philosophy one, the rules and guidelines are going to reflect this. Part of that is setting the boundaries for what opinions are and aren’t acceptable, and what the working definitions of what we consider bigotry are. Saying these opinions aren’t allowed is necessarily going to exclude people who actually believe them.

    Besides, epistemologically, there is no reason to see a trans person’s “I’m a man” as less than a cis person’s “I’m a man”. If you want to have these discussions, then you need to do it in an appropriate context. The comment section under a trans article isn’t really the best place as this comes across as trollish and like you’re trying to sneak in transphobia under the guise of philosophy.

    Is this really unbiased if it’s what "Twitter lefty shitposter"s think? I’ve found that group to be pretty toxic and malicious, and chosen to avoid that crowd.

    That video is mostly an application of Wittgenstein’s idea of family resemblances to the ‘what is a woman’ debate, should be right up your ally if what you want is philosophical discussion.

    • Flax@feddit.uk
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      13 days ago

      I don’t think such a discussion on a trans forum is appropriate. But what if it’s a discussion on a more conservative forum or on a post about theology?

      What do you mean by epistemologically?

      • flamingos-cant@feddit.ukOP
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        13 days ago

        This is pretty categorically not a conservative forum, so I don’t really see your point. If you want to discuss the Biblical definition of man/woman and whether that includes trans people in a theology post then sure? That would be appropriate context.

        What do you mean by epistemologically?

        I mean that fundamentally, there is nothing more true about a cis person saying they’re a man than a trans person saying they’re a man.

        • Flax@feddit.uk
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          13 days ago

          Ah, this makes sense now, thanks for clearing it up, and the work you do!

          I think as the fediverse grows, conservative forums will start to appear and sprout up eventually.

        • rah@feddit.uk
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          12 days ago

          That seems a bit presumptuous? What if someone creates some [email protected] community?

          Why dictate the purposes to which feddit.uk can be put? Why declare any purpose, “social discussion” or otherwise?

          • flamingos-cant@feddit.ukOP
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            12 days ago

            That seems a bit presumptuous? What if someone creates some [email protected] community?

            That wouldn’t really change the fact this is a place for discussion of things with other people. It would just be another place to have social discussion, but with a narrower range of topics than, say, an ask-a-question community.

            Instance-level rules and guidelines are going to be general purpose.

            • rah@feddit.uk
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              12 days ago

              Instance-level rules and guidelines are going to be general purpose.

              So if someone created a linguistic philosophy community on feddit.uk and in that community members held a discussion on ‘a trans person’s “I’m a man” as less than a cis person’s “I’m a man”’, is that prohibited or not?

              • flamingos-cant@feddit.ukOP
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                12 days ago

                One, that would be a bad subject for a linguistic philosophy community, and two, no as that’s pretty clearly within the stated definition of transphobia. I’m not going to let bigotry propagate because someone obstinately rule lawyered a comment I made an hour after waking up.

                • Flax@feddit.uk
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                  12 days ago

                  Is this about protecting the instance though or enforcing an opinion? This wasn’t a problem before Blahaj got upset. “Bigotry” seems to be a buzzword these days without clear definition, and it doesn’t really seem like it’s helping from such an important topic to discuss, as the cass report seemed to show.

                  If someone were to be in a hospital, and the nurse needed to know if they were a man or a woman for medical purposes, an AMAB person saying “yes” would be different from an AFAB trans man saying “yes”. I don’t think it’s fair to claim their identity socially is less than or different, or that he is a second class man when it comes to drinking with his mates down the pub. But if it comes to let’s say, a discussion of men’s rights issues, and it’s someone who started identifying as a man yesterday claiming that male mental health issues are overblown, compared to an AMAB person talking about life being a struggle, wouldn’t there be a difference there, even though it doesn’t make the trans man any less of a man?

                  • flamingos-cant@feddit.ukOP
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                    12 days ago

                    Is this about protecting the instance though or enforcing an opinion? This wasn’t a problem before Blahaj got upset.

                    It’s about protecting a vulnerable minority. One in four trans people report experiencing abuse online personally directed at them and hate crime against trans people is at record highs. I don’t want this place to be a contributor to these statistics and I’m going to prioritise the safety of our trans users over some notion of neutrality. That rise in transphobia I mention in the post we have experienced is real and I would’ve introduced these guidelines regardless of if they got use LBZ federation back, I didn’t even know beforehand that it would.

                    cass report seemed to show

                    I cannot express how little respect I have for the Cass review, it is a piece of politically motivated sophistry mostly disconnected from the medical science it tied itself in knots to discredit. Like seriously, double blind puberty blocker trials? The participants are going to know they’re on the placebo when they start growing facial hair/tits.

                    If someone were to be in a hospital, and the nurse needed to know if they were a man or a woman for medical purposes, an AMAB person saying “yes” would be different from an AFAB trans man saying “yes”. I don’t think it’s fair to claim their identity socially is less than or different, or that he is a second class man when it comes to drinking with his mates down the pub.

                    That just sounds like a bad question on the nurse’s part, they should ask specifically if they’re AMAB or not. I’m AMAB and I’ve been asked if I’m pregnant by nurses plenty of times, even before I realised I was trans, so it’s not like this is out of the norm for the NHS. AMAB/AFAB are also term the NHS uses all over the place.

                    But if it comes to let’s say, a discussion of men’s rights issues, and it’s someone who started identifying as a man yesterday claiming that male mental health issues are overblown, compared to an AMAB person talking about life being a struggle, wouldn’t there be a difference there, even though it doesn’t make the trans man any less of a man?

                    That does sound like a lack of intersectionality on the trans man’s part, and sure, a day is hardly long enough to understand the nuances of living as a particular group. I doubt a trans man would do this though, as from my experience, trans people are overly conscious about fitting in.

                    It also interesting how you frame society’s lack of attentiveness to men’s mental health as a men’s rights issue, would you agree that society’s lack of attentiveness to trans mental health is a trans’ rights issue?

    • rah@feddit.uk
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      12 days ago

      If you want to have these discussions, then you need to do it in an appropriate context. The comment section under a trans article isn’t really the best place as this comes across as trollish and like you’re trying to sneak in transphobia under the guise of philosophy.

      And so following from your other comments, the appropriate contexts you’re referring to are outside of feddit.uk? The instance is never an appropriate context and any such discussion whatsoever is prohibited?

      • flamingos-cant@feddit.ukOP
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        12 days ago

        Yes, there is no appropriate place on feddit.uk to discuss if a trans person’s gender identity is less valid than a cis person’s.

        The part you quoted was aimed at a Flax’s comment as a whole, who expressed a disinterest in this particular debate.