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Ok, why did Ukraine vote against?
Because the US installed nazi-sympathizing government in 2014: https://forward.com/news/462916/nazi-collaborator-monuments-in-ukraine/
Because when the vote was cast, Western Ukrainian Banderites were in power. Previously in this post.
It’s Russias way to keep the soviet legacy intact and justify it’s war of aggression to “denazify” Ukraine. There is a huge cultural shift of breaking off any remnants of Soviet “glory” in the country. Sadly it’s hidden behind a lot of valid points, that would explain the abstain votes.
- Expresses deep concern about increased frequency of attempts and activities intended to desecrate or demolish monuments erected in remembrance of those who fought against Nazism during the Second World War, as well as to unlawfully exhume or remove the remains of such persons, and in this regard urges States to fully comply with their relevant obligations, inter alia, under article 34 of Additional Protocol I to the Geneva Conventions of 194
Refusing to condemn Nazis and insisting on destroying and desecrating the monuments and mortal remains of the people who defeated Nazism seems like it would only vindicate Russias accusations, particularly when you’re putting up statues to people like Bandera in their place
US, Canada, Australia, and most of Europe voted against censorship.
It seems Iran was absent, but Israel voted for it.
From 1939-1941 the UK fought Nazis while the USSR collaborated with them.
South Korea abstained, but North Korea voted for it, as did Myanmar.
Description mentions Germany but it’s not highlighted like the others?
The map seems to be rage bait. Israel is green, the UK and Germany are yellow, and Ukraine went red.
∞🏳️⚧️Edie [it/its, she/her, fae/faer, love/loves, null/void, des/pair, none/use name]@lemmy.ml0·1 month agoThe image contains the date “November 15, 2018”, which doesn’t match up with anything in the UN Digital Library about that resolution. But if I assume it is the 2018 vote, we should look at A/RES/73/157 voting data, which does seem to line up.
The same name resolution came up for another vote on December 16, 2021. It seems like the vote went more or less the same way.
Here is the report of 3rd Committee.
The copy of resolution.
∞🏳️⚧️Edie [it/its, she/her, fae/faer, love/loves, null/void, des/pair, none/use name]@lemmy.ml0·1 month agoThe same resolution comes up for vote each year, since it was introduced back in 2013
Abstaining knowing the US will vote no is also voting no.
Condemning it is not a crime in the UK.
Equal shame for all the countries that abstained. There is not a damn chance any country is genuinely unsure how they want to vote so an abstain vote in this case is just “I want to vote against but am too embarrassed to.”
Which happens to be the entire West. Surprise surprise
We had a shitstorm in Poland over this, it’s extremely shameful that a country that suffered so much from nazism did voted like that, but government just responded “EU decided this”
∞🏳️⚧️Edie [it/its, she/her, fae/faer, love/loves, null/void, des/pair, none/use name]@lemmy.ml0·1 month agoAbsolutely, the only country that might have suffered more at the hands of the Nazis is the Soviet Union. In raw numbers Poland has the 3rd largest number of deaths in WW2, in % of 1939 population it is first.
Tell me about it. NZ has the most right-wing neo-liberal pro-American-politicking cabinet we’ve had in a long long time. (The PM is also so incompetent he’s polling the lowest approval we’ve had for a long time, possibly ever). They got in power off the backs of post-Covid economic hardship, despite having no proposed solutions other than funding landlords and cutting environmental policy.
If it had been put to the citizens, I believe we would’ve been for it. But the current cabinet doesn’t want to piss off American partners no doubt, hoping abstaining let’s them sit on the fence a little longer while pretending we’re ultimately n9t the bad guy. That will be the reason for most of those abstaining.
I’m disgusted.
It’s not a surprise, really. The proposal was sponsored by the Russian Federation and includes several talking point that they have since actively used to justify their fucking invasion of Ukraine (I.e. Nazis working to disrupt democracies cross-border).
Germany has truly lost its way not siding with its broskis USA and Turkey
That resolution probably broke Deutschland’s brain, because although it was a resolution against glorifying nazism, it was also against other forms of discrimination, which they’re cool with.
∞🏳️⚧️Edie [it/its, she/her, fae/faer, love/loves, null/void, des/pair, none/use name]@lemmy.ml0·1 month agoUkraine is Türkiye???
Fuck I got double vision
UN General Assembly resolution on “combatting the glorificarion of Nazism, neo-Nazism […] Contemporary forms of racism, racial discrimination, xenophobia and memes made with mematic”
The end says 'related intolerance." ’
Wasn’t that UN resolution’s one of the definitions of Nazism, that “the belief that the Ukrainian language and people are not a Leninist fabrication, to break the unity of the Russian empire”?
∞🏳️⚧️Edie [it/its, she/her, fae/faer, love/loves, null/void, des/pair, none/use name]@lemmy.ml0·1 month agoNot as far as i can see.
It is introduced by Russia and the main problem seems to be that any sort of collaborator with any sort of Nazi organization is considered to be jus the same. The problem with that is, that a number of anti Soviet groups did that as well, which now are seen as heros for their fight for independence of some formerly Soviet countries. That is particularily true for Ukraine, as Stalin did commit mass murder only a few years before the Nazis did invade Ukraine. Ukraine was also occupied by German forces in WW1 and although it was an occupation Stalin was seen as worse. So a lot of them were initially rather happy about it. That quickly changed though.
“The problem with the resolution is that it says Nazis are bad, even when they’re killing Russians!”
The fact that Nazi collaborators are seen as heroes is a problem. The Communists were in no way comparable in evil to the Nazis, the Communists were a massive force for progress as compared to their peers, while the Nazis invented industrialized mass murder. Further, the majority of Ukrainians actually believe the breakup of the USSR was a bad thing.
The reason is simple, transitioning from Socialism to Capitalism resulted in an estimated 7 million excess deaths globally, a huge spike in poverty and wealth inequality, destruction of safety nets, and a rise in far-right nationalists directly funded and supported by the West. This is why Nazi collaborators like Stepan Bandera are seeing resurging popularity in Ukraine, and this is a bad thing.
Further, the 1930s famine in Ukraine was by no means an intentional mass murder, such claims originate with the Nazis trying to discredit the Soviet Union. Even the Wikipedia page on Holodomor recognizes that claims of intentional murder are dubious at the most generous:
While most scholars are in consensus that the main cause of the famine was largely man-made, it remains in dispute whether the Holodomor was intentional, whether it was directed at Ukrainians, and whether it constitutes a genocide, the point of contention being the absence of attested documents explicitly ordering the starvation of any area in the Soviet Union.
The truth of the matter is that it was a horrible tragedy that got spun by the Nazis as evidence of the evils of the Soviet Union, as it was free propaganda to paint it as such by the Nazis, and useful for the anti-communist west to spread the Nazi narrative as from a Realpolitik perspective any means of discrediting Socialism was a good means. This is further affirmed by the openining of the Soviet Archives and the wealth of information confirmed and denied by them.
So the Holodomor was a sign of progress?
Also the Great Purge was not mass murder?
Just saying there were reasons for a lot of people to not like Stalin. You know enemy of my enemy is a friend kind of situation.
The famine in the 1930s was the last major famine outside of wartime in Russia and the surrounding areas until the collapse of the USSR, in a country where under the Tsar famine was regular and common. As a consequence of providing free and high quality healthcare, lowering working hours, improving labor conditions, and achieving food security, life expectancy doubled from the 30s to the 70s. The famine was a tragedy, but the Soviets were also responsible for ending famine and dramatically improving the lives of the working class.
As for the Great Purge, that wasn’t something targeting Ukrainians specifically, but all manner of criminals. The purges themselves usually just meant expulsion from the party, but often criminal charges were levied against former members of the White Army, Nazi collaborators, rapists, corrupt officials, and other serious crimes. 700,000 were condemned to death, with many of those condemned being aquitted and not actually executed, though it is true that there was unfortunately excess.
You’ll want to read this excerpt from the book The Triumph of Evil, specifically page 74:
The claim that Stalin and other Soviet leaders killed millions (Conquest, 1990) also appears to be wildly exaggerated. More recent evidence from the Soviet archives opened up by the anticommunist Yeltsin government indicate that the total number of death sentences (including of both existing prisoners and those outside captivity) over the 1921-1953 interval (covering the period of Stalin’s partial and complete rule) was between 775,866 and 786,098 (Getty, Rittersporn, and Zemskov, 1993). Given that the archive data originates from anti-Stalin (and even anticommunist) sources, it is extremely unlikely that they underestimate the true number (Thurston, 1996). In addition, the Soviet Union has long admitted to executing at least 12,733 people between 1917 and 1921, mostly during the Foreign Interventionist Civil War of 1918-22, although it is possible that as many as 40,000 more may have been executed unofficially (Andics, 1969).
These data would seem to imply about 800,000 executions. The figure of 800,000 may greatly overestimate the number of actual executions, as it includes many who were sentenced to death but who were not actually caught or who had their sentences reduced (Getty, Rittersporn, and Zemskov, 1993). In fact, Vinton (1993) has provided evidence indicating that the number of executions was significantly below the number of civilian prisoners sentenced to death in the Soviet Union, with only 7,305 executions in a sample of 11,000 prisoners authorized to be executed in 1940 (or scarcely 600/o ). In addition, most (681,692) of the 780,000 or so death sentences passed under Stalin were issued during the 1937-38 period (Getty, Ritterspom, and Zemskov, 1993), when Soviet paranoia about foreign subversion reached its zenith due to a 1936 alliance between Nazi Germany and fascist Japan that was specifically directed against the Soviet Union (Manning, 1993) and due to a public 1936 resolution by a group of influential anti-Stalin foreigners (the Fourth International which was allied with the popular but exiled Russian dissident Leon Trotsky) advocating the overthrow of the Soviet government by illegal means (Glotzer, 1968).
Stalin initially set a cap of 186,500 imprisonments and 72,950 death penalties for a 1937 special operation to combat this threat that was to be carried out by local 3-man tribunals called ''troikas" (Getty, Ritterspom, and Zemskov, 1993). As the tribunals passed death sentences before the accused had even been arrested, local authorities requested increases in their own quotas (Knight, 1993), and there was an official request in 1938 for a doubling of the amount of prisoner transport that had been initially requisitioned to carry out the original campaign “quotas” of the tribunals (Getty, Ritterspom, and Zemskov, 1993). However, even if there had been twice as many actual • executions as originally planned, the number would still be less than 150,000. Many of those sentenced by the tribunals may have escaped capture, and many more may have had their death sentence refused or revoked by higher authorities before arrest/execution could take place, especially since Stalin later realized that excesses had been committed in the 1937-38 period, had a number of convictions overturned, and had many of the responsible local leaders punished (Thurston, 1996)."
This is why relying exclusively on Wikipedia is silly, do some actual reading. A solid rule of thumb with respect to any Wikipedia article on enemies of the US is to look at where the figures and sources come from and analyze them yourself, as you can see Wikipedia made the error of conflating condemnations with executions.
Your entire point, though, relies on painting the Communists as comparable evils to the Nazis, which is quantitatively and qualitatively divorced from reality. Again, the Nazis industrialized mass murder deliberately, and figures like Bandera sided with them deliberately against the Soviets, who were a force for good. Upholding Nazi sympathizers is a bad thing.
Your entire point, though, relies on painting the Communists as comparable evils to the Nazis, which is quantitatively and qualitatively divorced from reality. Again, the Nazis industrialized mass murder deliberately, and figures like Bandera sided with them deliberately against the Soviets, who were a force for good. Upholding Nazi sympathizers is a bad thing.
Just to be clear, as in my initial post:
So a lot of them were initially rather happy about it. That quickly changed though.
I pretty much said that Stalin was mass murderer and did not run Ukraine very well. I do not think any of what you wrote really disproves that. You do not need to be on Nazi level evil, to be evil.
We are also talking about modern day Russia introducing the resolution for a reason. Basically it would be Bandera wanted an independent Ukraine, so everybody who wants an independent Ukraine is a Nazi. If the West agrees with that resolution, then that would be used. This way they choose to be absent, as to not be in that vote.
The “lot of Ukrainians” that saw the USSR as worse than the Nazis were the far-right nationalists in Ukraine spearheaded by Bandera. A “lot of USians” were certainly upset at ending slavery, to the point of armed struggle, but that doesn’t make them correct, either. Bandera was a far-right nationalist that is supported by the modern far-right nationalists in Ukraine, which is why there’s a problem with Nazi brigades like Azov increasing in relevance in Ukrainian politics post-Maidan.
Further, again, the Soviets were unquestionably the most progressive force throughout the 20th century, from supporting revolutionary movements in Cuba, Algeria, South Africa, Vietnam, Korea, China, and more, to supporting Palestinians against genocide at the hands of Israel, to being responsible for 90% of the total Nazis killed in World War II and saving the world from fascism, to doubling life expectancies, over tripling literacy rates, democratizing the economy, and dramatically lowering wealth inequality.
Yes, there absolutely were problems faced internally and externally, and there were mistakes and excesses. These pale in comparison to the deliberate acts of mass genocide perpetrated by Western Europe and the US throughout the 20th century and today, all while the USSR was under constant siege and the Western world reaped the spoils of Imperialism.
Bandera and neo-Nazism are tied to Ukrainian politics. Nationalists are in control of politics, and the Banderites make up the majority of Nationalists in Ukraine. This is a sad reality that must be confronted, no matter what your stance on the modern Russo-Ukrainian war is, and it ties directly to Ukraine and the US being the only countries to vote against this resolution.
As someone from the U.S., given the history we know about the Trail of Tears and trying to erase Native Americans from existence, this isn’t surprising in the least. Sad, yes, but not surprising.
Just like all the colonial powers voting “I don’t know about this one dawg” because they know their history
Yep we boned it, learn from us and be better.
I hate to tell you this, but basically every country has the same story, except the very young. They don’t need to learn from our history; they should learn from their own.
Lots of countries committed colonialism, not many countries committed genocide on the native population and stole their land to create and expand their nation. The U.S. and Israel are members of a short list.
shit amerikkkans say
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples
What makes you think it’s not true? A gander through the history of genocide shows how horrifyingly common it is
It’s horrifyingly common among European countries. That’s not “every country” unless you think only westerners are civilized.
Somali, Chile, Argentina, south Africa, Japan, Korea, China. It’s horrifyingly common no matter what area.
South African apartheid was a Dutch colonial project. There’s been no genocide in China and the one in Korea was perpetrated by the US.
Also, what part of genocide do you think is about being civilized…?
Either you have the shittiest reading comprehension or you’re deliberately misrepresenting the argument to twist it into such a comical interpretation. You’re the one that said “every country” and proceeded to link to a NATOpedia page that fails to list a whole bunch of European/US genocides and even then is short, oh, about 96% of countries on earth.
Despite numerous instances of racial discrimination in many Latin American countries (most often at the hands of CIA backed organizations like Pinochet’s government or the Brazilian junta) the fact is that none of these countries were founded on a war in favor of maintaining slavery and expanding into indigenous lands. In fact, most were founded by the descendants of indigenous peoples casting off the their colonial masters.
To say that every country has been founded via genocide is to imply this is just a normal, unavoidable thing, which is genocide apologia. I wish westerners would stop whitewashing their Nazi ass societies like smearing the rest of us is a good alternative to doing something about the legacy of violence you were raised by.
Lots of countries committed colonialism, not many countries committed genocide on the native population and stole their land to create and expand their nation. The U.S. and Israel are members of a short list.
I was more referring to general genocide than specifically native populations–but even that there is no shortage of countries like Australia, Canada, and japan that have done as such.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide_of_indigenous_peoples
There is a depressingly high number.
Ok? Those are the ones we were talking about on this map, youre moving the goalposts from “every” to “yeah the whole international community” which was the point to begin with. These countries get on their high horse when they have an exceptionally genocidal history.
These countries get on their high horse when they have an exceptionally genocidal history.
My point was meant to point out how countries with genocidal histories like to point out others as the ones to avoid repeating examples of rather than their own history.
You’re being straight up racist assuming it’s only white western countries commit genocides.
Lmao and there it is. Racism against the whites.
“everyone else does it to!” Is always the favourite defence of abusers
…wait, you thought this was a defense? I’m sorry, perhaps I worded it poorly then.
If you weren’t defending it, in would say you definitely worded it poorly
Now thats some biiiig projection
It’s funny because it’s the same map as all the “Free world vs unfree world” maps
Always the same map.
Having a metropolis is not exempt from being under oppression.
Would you show pictures of skyscrapers in the middle east to compare its human rights?
Because the people living in the many apartment towers in the top image aren’t being targeted in a literal Final Solution supported by the exact same powers that cry crocodile tears over made-up claims of “genocide in Xinjiang”.
Also the Uyghurs living in Xinjiang are Chinese citizens.
Death to ameriKKKa, Death to piSSrael
Most Marxist-Leninists are skeptical of the Uyghur genocide narrative because the scant evidence we’re given comes from spurious sources like Adrian Zenz and an Australian weapons makers think tank called the ASPI. We’re also well-versed in the American empire’s history of hurling manufactured atrocity propaganda at its geopolitical rivals.
Ignore the photographs of Xinjiang and Gaza. Just look at the maps to the left. They show that the only countries against China on the Uyghur issue are the exact same colonizing countries which are trying to subjugate the Global South on every other issue. We think this isn’t a coincidence.
The accusation wasn’t human rights abuses, the accusation was genocide.
The propaganda trick here is to throw out a henious story, completely fail to back it up with evidence, then gradually retreat to a far less damning accusation that’s essentially impossible to disprove. The smear sticks with most people and you then see how much of the lie you can get away with depending on the crowd.
Under oppression of what? Of CIA-backed terrorist attacks being suppressed? Oh the huge manatee.
Canada abstained? What the fuck, hosers?
Edit: wait all/most of Europe as well? WTF
I think the Right has a significant enough presence over here as to encourage our leadership to tread with care, lest they upset someone. It’s not good.
If you read the resolution and the answers of national governments why they abstained, the answer is found in points 4 and 14 of the resolution, where everyone who fought against the anti-Hitler coalition is condemned and equivocated with nazi-sympathisers. This does include people who opportunistically fought againt the Red Army in the baltic states and Ukraine for national liberation from the USSR, but not necessarily on the german side.
Yes, some of those “national liberation fighters” were absolute shitbag nazi scum, but not all of them were and history is generally more complex than just good and bad.
There was a movement to restrict those two points to language that does not automatically include these anti-soviet forces among the ranks of the nazis, but the changes were not adopted.
Some politicians posit the hypothesis that the resolution was worded in such a way through russian string pulling, because they wanted to be able to paint every anti-russian fighter in the time of the second world war as pro-Hitler.
Yes, some of those “national liberation fighters” were absolute shitbag nazi scum, but not all
If you are fighting against the Allies alongside “shitbag Nazi scum,” you are a Nazi sympathizer.
The vast majority of the world sees this clearly.
Australia as well… I guess it’s white peoples’ fault after all.
As a Canadian, Canada has way more Nazis than people realize and the broader government tends pretend we don’t have a Nazi problem while certain politicians are full on embracing them (just look at Danielle Smith). It’s not as bad as in the US, but that’s a really low bar and isn’t exactly praiseworthy.
It’s amazing how Canada giving a standing ovation to a literal SS member has been so quickly memory holed.
From the US response:
That said, the United States continues to oppose the Russian Federation’s manipulation of the UN system to spread disinformation. This resolution is a glaring example by Russia to further its contemporary geopolitical aims by invoking the Holocaust and the Second World War to malign countries that rightfully reject celebration of their years of brutal domination by the Soviet Union. This is all the more egregious now when Russia seeks to use a false accusation of Nazism to try to justify its unconscionable ongoing brutality against the people of Ukraine. The Russian Federation’s resolution is not a serious effort to combat Nazism, antisemitism, racism, or xenophobia – all of which are abhorrent and unacceptable. On the contrary, Russia’s attempts to instrumentalize the history of the Holocaust and the Second World War to justify Russia’s aggression is an affront to Holocaust victims and to all who fought against Nazism. This resolution is a shameful political ploy. It is a thinly veiled effort to justify Russia’s war of aggression against Ukraine.
Seems like this was just Russian apologia to support their invasion of the Ukraine. Voting against doesn’t seem unreasonable in that context.
Damn, all of south america, africa, and asia are russian bots now. /s
This is all the more egregious now when Russia seeks to use a false accusation of Nazism to try to justify its unconscionable ongoing brutality against the people of Ukraine.
- Reuters, 2014: Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU
- Leaked recording between Nuland and Pyatt: audio | transcript
- Counterpunch, 2014: US Imperialism and the Ukraine Coup
- BBC, 2014: Ukraine underplays role of far right in conflict
- Human Rights Watch, 2014: Ukraine: Unguided Rockets Killing Civilians
- Consortium News, 2015: The Mess That Nuland Made Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland engineered Ukraine’s regime change without weighing the likely consequences.
- The Hill, 2017: The reality of neo-Nazis in Ukraine is far from Kremlin propaganda
- The Guardian, 2017: ‘I want to bring up a warrior’: Ukraine’s far-right children’s camp – video
- WaPo, 2018: The war in Ukraine is more devastating than you know
- Reuters, 2018: Ukraine’s neo-Nazi problem
- The Nation, 2019: Neo-Nazis and the Far Right Are On the March in Ukraine
- openDemocracy, 2019: Why Ukraine’s new language law will have long-term consequences
- Al Jazeera, 2022: Why did Ukraine suspend 11 ‘pro-Russia’ parties?
- Jacobin, 2022: A US-Backed, Far Right–Led Revolution in Ukraine Helped Bring Us to the Brink of War
- Consortium News, 2023: The West’s Sabotage of Peace in Ukraine Former Israeli Prime Minister Bennett’s recent comments about getting his mediation efforts squashed in the early days of the war adds more to the growing pile of evidence that Western powers are intent on regime change in Russia.
- NYT, 2024: U.N. Court to Rule on Whether Ukraine Committed Genocide
- History of Fascism in Ukraine: Part I, Part II, Part III, Part IV
What? You mean there is not a single country without Nazis? Oh the heavens. Nazi groups im Ukraine are still an issue (as they are everywhere) but maybe something happened that was more important. Don’t know what though.
Usa coup, 2014
You will notice that all of these stories are after 2014 though. The fascist movements was formed quite rapidly, but it was still in response to aggression by the Russian government and military. These new fascists (Azov batallion a prime example ) were/are made up of Russian speakers from eastern Ukraine!! Not the stereotypical russophobes from lviv.
Gee I wonder what actions of the Russian military or their “polite people” in eastern Ukraine might have led to this??
The Banderite fascists didn’t suddenly spring into existence at the moment of their 2014 coup. They go all the way back to the 1930s.
ukrainian nationalism (including its heinous forms) goes at least as far back as the russian revolution/civil war, and ideologically originated in late 19th century. but again, it was developed in response to the no less vicious russian imperialism
Canada has a large diaspora of Ukrainian Nazi sympathizers. They famously gave a Ukrainian Nazi a standing ovation in parliament.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/canada-speaker-apologizes-ukraine-nazi-veteran-honored-rcna117125
lmao I’m jealous at how easy the Russian propagandists have it sometimes
Because it’s a Russian sponsored resolution.
Because they’re US puppets
Got a source for that?
Nope, but it’s pretty obvious if Ukraine was one of the only two countries to vote against.
And another guy, who’s actually read it, pointed out that it equates tearing down soviet monuments with Nazism.
That map shows the US and Türkiye as red.
∞🏳️⚧️Edie [it/its, she/her, fae/faer, love/loves, null/void, des/pair, none/use name]@lemmy.ml0·1 month agoUkraine is Türkiye???
idea: convince Turks that Ukraine is actually turkey and make them go to war with russia
Considering how many times in the past Turkey lost to Russia i think they would at least doublecheck this lol
that’s ukraine.
Either the map is wrong, or the header is wrong, because that is not Germany.