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What do you define as propaganda? Anything could be if your definition is too broad.
Edward Bernays wrote the book on it, as well as Walter Lippman[1]. And subsequently so have Michael Parenti[1][2] and Noam Chomsky[1].
- Short YouTube intro: Noam Chomsky: The five filters of the mass media machine
- Somewhat longer one: You’re Not Immune To Propaganda
From the first one
The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of.
Sounds like it’s referring to any marketing or public communications from any company government or individual. I’d qualify that as overly broad.
Hollywood’s role is propagate the owner class views upon the wagie population to create obedience with a few exceptions… And they don’t make those movies anymore.
Lastime they did it was jocker and elites go to scared that they ensured to ruin the prequel. That vibe changed real quick lol
Hollywood’s role is to make money. They do that by making movies that appeal to people so that they’ll pay for them, while not alienating their funding. There isn’t some top down directive to portray oligarchs well, it’s just part of the ballance. Another factor is that directors, at least established ones, tend to be rich, so they have that perspective in their work.
That’s how censorship works in practice… Profit motive and ownership structure is just the American way of doing it.
The profit motive certainly is a major aspect, maybe even the largest, but there’s more going on than just that. For instance, the US military-intelligence-industrial complex gets directly & indirectly involved, and this is well documented.
Though money. They don’t let people film with their equipment unless they have some say in the outpout. But again, it isn’t a conspiracy, it’s factors and pressures that sometimes effect the output.
Okay sure, they conspired, but again, it’s not a conspiracy 😂
It seems like you’re jumping through hoops to maintain some kind of Panglossian, high school civics worldview.
Michael Parenti, Dirty Truths:
Those who suffer from conspiracy phobia are fond of saying: “Do you actually think there’s a group of people sitting around in a room plotting things?” For some reason that image is assumed to be so patently absurd as to invite only disclaimers. But where else would people of power get together – on park benches or carousels? Indeed, they meet in rooms: corporate boardrooms, Pentagon command rooms, at the Bohemian Grove, in the choice dining rooms at the best restaurants, resorts, hotels, and estates, in the many conference rooms at the White House, the NSA, the CIA, or wherever. And, yes, they consciously plot – though they call it “planning” and “strategizing” – and they do so in great secrecy, often resisting all efforts at public disclosure. No one confabulates and plans more than political and corporate elites and their hired specialists. To make the world safe for those who own it, politically active elements of the owning class have created a national security state that expends billions of dollars and enlists the efforts of vast numbers of people.
So no Luigi movie for us is what you’re saying 😞
In some languages “advertising” and “propaganda” are the same word, and not for nothing. Bernays worked in both advertising and politics. It’s the same set of tools whether its to sell cigarettes or war.
Would all rhetoric (persuading people) be propaganda? I think that makes the word useless.
Rhetorical exchange between two people is one thing, mass persuasion is quite another, though they are not entirely unrelated.
So would any speech to a bunch of people be propaganda? What makes something propaganda?
it’s not useless if it describes something.
It’s describing all communication, good and bad. This conversation we’re having right now would be propaganda.
You’re trying to influence someone’s understanding of the term propganda, which makes it propganda.
I’d define propaganda as misconstruing the truth towards political ends. If it’s commercial ends rather than political, it’s false advertising. If it’s not misconstruing, then it’s advertising or public communications. Just to set a baseline.
I can’t find what your sources are defining as propaganda from a brief look, let’s compare to my definition.
it doesn’t need to be misconstrued. the best propaganda imho is totally true and in context. spreading it with some kind of political goal is still propaganda.
Cool, I wouldn’t call that propaganda, but we can work with that.
Do the Captain America movies have an irl political goal? What would it be?
I haven’t seen them, but I do know they work with the pentagon, so my guess is they aim to legitimize American hegemony and military spending
I have seen them, and the government is the bad guy, with the overreach of public surveillance being major topic. You’ll need to be more specific, but that would probably entail watching them.
I have no interest though. do you have a point?
In this case, all bullshit Yank media that makes you think America are good guys and cops help you.
So only bad guys solve murder cases?
Good guys let random vicious murders on the loose.
I should trust an obvious propaganda expert , but I don’t know…
I’m glad I don’t know you in real life
I swear a couple of people are here to libsplain us in their confident ignorance.
I mean you ever see The Wire? In the first season the “heroes” beat the shit out of bystanders so much a child loses an eye. They then go on to solve murders.
I haven’t see the wire. But I don’t remember they doing that in CSI Miami, they just solved murder cases in ingenious ways.
For some people CSI is like extreme propaganda. Then they proceded to eat a literal propaganda video from a terrorist group that’s literally murdering people and justifying why they are murdering people and be cool with that. The other guy literally threatened me over that, it’s crazy.
I don’t think that’s a good definition, since Holocaust documentaries would be propaganda since it makes America look like the good guys.
That would definitely be propaganda since it was the Soviets who actually did all the work while the American’s ratlined them into their country and became a Nazi Empire over the next 80 years.
American’s ratlined the Nazi’s into their country,
FYI, the Soviet Union also recruited Nazis into their ranks - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Osoaviakhim
If you compre both events beyong the absolute surface you might find the difference:
The soviets kept them under lock and key, extracted their knowledge and then got rid of them.
The US gave them high paying jobs, citizenship, honored their work after they passed, and amnesty for their crimes.
Let me get this right, your saying all reporting on the Holocaust is propaganda?
I’m saying everything you know about everything is propaganda. Try reading books, specifically by Bernays then come back to this conversation.
You fucking yank libs with your bullshit exasperations - Let me get this right, lol have you ever read a book? You don’t need to reply, I know the answer and I blocked you because I don’t think you have anything to contribute to my life.
I think any books I’ve read you’d call propaganda, I’m not sure what you wouldn’t call propaganda.
Well you see, American propaganda is cringe, while my superior vintage Soviet propaganda is based.
Hoped this comment was helpful :)
The cop dramas are often like modern fantasy to me. There’s different classes and quests. It doesn’t reflect real life.
We’re more aware of it now. Cop shows have always been about cops willing to break the rules, and they are made the heroes. This gave a whole generation an excuse to look at dirty cops as heroes doing what they needed to do
You forgot ncis
stopped watching western television a long time ago, mostly watched asian television nowadays
Could you recommend some good shows and movies?
The Battle at Lake Changjin (2021) Wolf Warrior 2 (2017) Hi, Mom (2021) Fallen angels by Wong kar wai
Literal propaganda movies?
Ahahaha fucking hell and youse say the westerns are brainwashed.
Thank you
should have replaced CSI NY with Blue Bloods, same message, same city.
wait why is captain america up there? its wrong to fight nazis? is that what you’re saying?
Propaganda does not inherently mean something is wrong. Capitan America was created as propaganda to encourage the US to join WWII.
Captain America’s creation as an explicitly anti-Nazi figure was a deliberately political undertaking: Simon and Kirby were stridently opposed to the actions of Nazi Germany and supporters of U.S. intervention in World War II, with Simon conceiving of the character specifically in response to the American non-interventionism movement. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_America
More recently, the character has certainly been used as propaganda for American nationalism in meme culture
thanks for the info 👍
He masks the fact that you (Americans) are the Nazis. It masks the fact that all soldiers are the enemy of free people. It enforces American exceptionalism. Fuck Marvel, Disney, all Super Heroes and Yankee media.
What are you talking about man? Of course all Super Hero stories are propaganda, but Nazi propaganda??? Do you even know what that word means?
https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fi.redd.it%2Fi1un7mkv3dr11.jpg
That sounds like Nazi propaganda to you? I don’t care if you want to shit all over corporate media, I’d probably even agree with you, but this take just isn’t it
Yes. That sounds exactly like nazi propaganda.
Do you even know what that word means?
So fucking sick of people who do exactly zero reading on a topic spouting off with ‘common sense’ and think their incredulity is the same thing as having a single thought knocking around your head.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur-Fascism
Like it’s so fucking hard to imagine that “Super Humans” which exactly translates to German as “Ubermench” could have nazi ideology baked in to the very foundation.
Where exactly does a Captain America comic argue for creating more super soldiers? You think the characters backstory overrules everything he says or does? You said I’ve done “zero reading” but you didn’t even respond to the comic panel I posted, you’re not interested in a conversation, you just want to preach at me
Where exactly does a Captain America comic argue for creating more super soldiers?
What the fuck are you even talking about. Completely incoherent.
You think the characters backstory overrules everything he says or does?
You posted a speech and asked if it sounded like nazi propaganda. Now you want me to care about your cartoon lore? Are you here to have an adult conversation or do you want to play with dolls?
You said I’ve done “zero reading” but you didn’t even respond to the comic panel I posted
Read the fucking link I gave you and you’ll find the response you asked for. Why do you think I bothered linking it to you? Do you need everything spoonfed? It’s like a page and a half. Fucking Christ.
Did you even read your own link?
“Disagreement is treason” – fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith
I posted an exact panel from the source material showing you the character standing against one of the principles of fascism, and you still called it Nazi propaganda? Maybe you should start using your brain instead of calling everything you don’t like Nazi propaganda.
If you actually read it instead of just looking for a facile ‘own’ to mine from it, you’d have noticed a lot of the points were contradictory to each other and that there are two or three points that directly apply to super hero comics and that speech in particular.
Guy in a thread where the topic is poptarts: “You just say everything you don’t like is poptarts!”
So fucking sick of people who do exactly zero reading on a topic spouting off with ‘common sense’ and think their incredulity is the same thing as having a single thought knocking around your head.
So fucking sick of people reading a book and suddenly thinking they’re right about everything. Have you considered the book you’re reading may be incorrect, or that there’s more involved with superheros than “Buff white guy = Nazi,” especially with a character that was created specifically to oppose fascism?
So just the fact that a character is super strong automatically makes him a Nazi?
Booster Gold is a buff white superhero. Is he a Nazi? Such bullshit.
or that there’s more involved with superheros than “Buff white guy = Nazi
You as a person are exactly as fucking stupid as this strawman
What a relief to find out the person replying to every comment of mine is a fucking moron that can’t even follow a few simple sentences in a forum comment while shitting on the idea of reading books.
dot world energy
Except in real life you actually said this stupid shit:
Like it’s so fucking hard to imagine that “Super Humans” which exactly translates to German as “Ubermench” could have nazi ideology baked in to the very foundation.
This is the dumbest fucking thing I’ve ever read in my entire life and shows you know absolutely nothing about the subject. The concept of a “superhero” predates National Socialism, concept of a Nazi superman, and even the creation of fascism as an ideology itself, and in fact has roots in myths and folklore.
But you wouldn’t know that because you’re too busy being sniffing your own farts. Here’s some advice, try reading a comic book before you talk about them, maybe then you won’t look so stupid.
NGL CSI was my shit growing up. Though I was never deluded into believing that accurately reflected reality to any extent. ACAB
“But they’re just TV shows” “it’s not that deep” etc. I would implore you to listen to this excellent episode of Citations Needed..
It covers how modern cop shows were invented directly to counter shows that portrayed defence lawyers as the protagonists, along with a general push to lionize the police state despite its inability to prevent crime or deliver real justice.
Hey guess what? I don’t actually give a fuck. I want to enjoy my shows without all this political nonsense thank you
Is grammar police also ACAB? Lol
Bro thinks Startship Troopers is actual army propaganda.
When I first watched that movie, there was a group of guys that would have joined the troopers, judging from at what scenes they cheered.
You don’t copy Leni Riefenstahl without making at least partly a fascist propaganda movie.
The book was so on point people still argue if it was pro or anti fascism.
You can start my ship any time
Copaganda
Crazy how much of this stuff is subsidized by or directly financed by the national security state. The most infamous, in my memory anyway, was the Transformers Franchise which got enormous access to US military staff and equipment during the shooting. The end result was a movie that felt more like one of those hookey 80s “Join the Marines” ads than a piece of action cinema.
I kinda get it though…it’s not like these armed forces are producing the movie themselves.
The studio wants to make a movie about/involving these entities. They want it to be as realistic as possible and the entity itself has the authority to give them access that it could also deny.
If you’re in charge of, say, the Marines PR department, you’re constantly trying to make the Corps look good and boost recruitment. If you can do this for next to nothing against your budget by granting access to a studio making a film that will give you essentially free PR, that’s a great move. The bigger the movies potential, the more the entity in question is motivated to support it.
On the other hand, if the film is going to make your organization look bad, no PR person with a functioning brain is going to help that project in any way.
Idunno, I feel like these organizations do enough actually bad things, that I don’t feel the urge to crucify them for cultivating image and working to generate positive PR.
Legally, access to government resources shouldn’t depend on how you portray the government
Legally it’s totally okay, actually.
I know this is all very unpopular opinion here on Lemmy, but it’s fact.
The studio wants to make a movie about/involving these entities.
Studios want cheap special effects budgets and the MIC wants cheap labor. So you get what amounts to a promotional video for branches of the service, paid for out of the operating budgets of these agencies.
Idunno, I feel like these organizations do enough actually bad things, that I don’t feel the urge to crucify them for cultivating image and working to generate positive PR.
I think a big part of the “doing bad things” process is facilitated by whitewashing our activities in Kandahar or Fallujah with “We’re just cool dudes fighting big monsters” action movie propaganda. Is Transformers as egregious as Rambo II or American Sniper? Not strictly. But its geared towards a younger audience, so it can’t do the same kind of blood-drenched jingoism in that way.
I would consider gulling 12-year-olds into aspiring to become conscript killers for the oil & gas industry overseas pretty fucking bad, though.
At least the newer Transformers films are better in that regard, with the latest film not having anything to do with it. Then again I heard they are doing a Transformers x GI Joe film.
Double Woof.
But yes, a lot of this just comes down to who will pay to finance the film. If Raytheon or the US Marines is willing to pick up a big chunk of the production costs, you’re going to keep seeing them in the producer credits and “Special Thanks To” sections.
Where does stuff like Brooklyn 99 come in?
Fetish content
ACAB sorry man
I tend to lump it in with The West Wing as idealistic wish fulfilment of how we’d like things to be, or a picture of our human potential.
thats how all these should be seen as, boggles my mind people cant enjoy something fictional because it isnt 100% accurate to real life. like batman, “oh no billionaire would ever be the good guy” yeah okay thats why batman isnt a real guy 😂
Sometimes the “realism” critique is certainly pedantic and unproductive, but other times what’s really meant is contradiction. Situations should make sense within the fictional world. And in the fictional world of DC, norms around politics and economics are portrayed to be analogous to western neoliberalism with capitalism assumed and unquestioned. So with the Wayne family being a relatively well-regarded billionaire family like the Gates or the Buffets, there is still the issue that it is clear under the current system and that portrayed in DC universe that such wealth cannot be accumulated and sustained without massive exploitation of working class people somewhere along the line. So billionaire + “good guy” starts to become more of a glaring contradiction even in DC. But sure, we can explain it away as fiction with magically ethical capitalists. The interesting thing about the billionaire Wayne discussion though, is when people apply this fictional view of capitalism to how they interpret the real world. And now we’re back to propaganda.
What I would say that sets West Wing and B99 apart is sometimes there’s a tonal difference or way in which certain themes are handled/portrayed that signals to the viewer that the writers acknowledge this isn’t what real life is like but we hope one day we can get there. And it’s a spectrum right. Some do this to varying degrees, other more propagandistic media do not.
We’re all about “let people enjoy what they want” until someone says they enjoy something besides your favorite media
Moonie (Moon Channel) has a lovely 2h30 video on the topic of Kawaii: Anime, Propaganda, and Soft Power Politics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IM2VIKfaY0Y
It focuses mostly on the eastern part of things, but it applies to stuff we end up consuming, too. Also worth quoting one of the top comments in the video:
I think you get one thing wrong, and that is claiming Japan is the #1 at projecting soft power. I’m sorry but the US is #1 and it isn’t even a contest (coming from a non-American). The reason we don’t really get the impression that the US is this soft power behemoth is because the US has been so proficient in projecting soft power that it has been normalized and integrated everywhere.
Everything is propaganda if it changes your view of something
That’s too much of a generalization. Propaganda is far more specific.
Doesn’t even need to change your mind.
Pretty much spot on, though that is the exact point of these kinds of shows.
It was part of a wave of shows launched to counter the media perception of incompetence in law enforcement/prosecution. They pushed a bunch of dangerously misleading (or even outright fake) claims such as the reliability and accuracy of forensic evidence which has been later used in actual court cases to imprison innocent people.
As always, Citations needed has done a brilliant job on this kind of stuff that’s worth a listen.
I knew it, glasses are propaganda
I like the myth of the police, not actual cops, I like Simon Pegg in Hot Fuzz, actual cops can suck a nard
For the greater good!
The greater good.
Stop saying that!
When’s your birthday?
forgot call of duty
Maybe once upon a time, but the current state it is in is definitely not military propaganda.
Why?
It has stupid ass anime skins, and bullshit scenarios, and in Cold War, you can have the communists win.
Yes, master
