- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
cross-posted from: https://slrpnk.net/post/15995282
Real unfortunate news for GrapheneOS users as Revolut has decided to ban the use of ‘non-google’ approved OSes. This is currently being posted about and updated by GrahpeneOS over at Bluesky for those who want to follow it more closely.
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Seems like my time to move away from Authy. Any drop in alternative for iOS? Ideally I could export services and load them back, not manually adding/removing 1 by 1. Even if I can’t though, suggestion still welcomed.
Well, Google is known for destroying its opposition.
This has very little to do with Google. Custom OS’s in general are being restricted by these apps, not Graphene in particular. All custom OS’s and root access devices are inherently less secure, even if they are privacy focused OS’s.
In IT this is called a zero trust. You don’t trust anything you cannot verify yourself. And a user installed OS is not something anyone can verify other than the installing user. Obviously for your own security you have your own zero trust policy if you are using something like Graphene, but these companies aren’t making it more secure for you as a user, they’re covering their asses in case there are holes in security they cannot account for.
I had Custom OSs installed before. My bank works fine, but there are apps that require Google Apps. I’d say that’s got pretty much to do with Google.
You’re implying that Google is causing these apps to not support custom OSs. But it’s literally not true. These apps are just not supporting custom OSs because their businesses don’t want to support non-standard platforms for security purposes. Tons of banks do not support custom OSs. It has nothing to do with Google and everything to do with not trusting the user which is 100% the correct approach for cyber security.
Got it. So it’s something similar to latest security proposals like not letting me download files on Windows because they are not normally downloaded. Or visiting a website with self signed certificates. So it’s more secure.
The apps complain: “You need Google Play services to use this app”.
So it’s about security. Right. What kind of security does McDonaldss need? Does it need security for their coupons?
Besides that, I thought payment gateway provided very good security by themselves.
But let’s steer from what happens on mainstream apps a little.
Isn’t Google Wallet or Online payments insecure too? Don’t they have tons security failures also? Human security failures, like if someone robs my phone and my info they would have access to my money?
Google and the smartphone industry employ accelerometers and other methods to make sure robbers can’t get to the system. They admit themselves that the systems aren’t safe and they’re working on AI and electronic methods to avoid access to sensitive information.
Is this the security you’re talking about? Maybe we should just steer the industry another way, like those Custom OSs do. Alternatives aren’t security potential threats. They’re the solution for the problem.
Making a monopoly based on making it “safe” isn’t secure at all.
It’s not for your security. It’s for the company’s security. You’re really dense you know that. This is not about you and it’s not about Google. What I’m saying is, people suck ass. So to protect themselves from people sucking ass, they restrict access to their system to their terms. Completely fair if you ask me.
You can go cry Google bad all you want. I might even agree Google is bad. But this is not a Google thing. It’s an IT security thing. The banks and MFA providers are security first businesses. They will make the decision that protect them first and it makes sense for them to do so. If you owned a bank, there is a high likelihood you would make similar decisions that end users don’t quite understand.
As far as McDonald’s is concerned, who the fuck knows what their developers are doing. That app is trash anyways.
perhaps dial back the attitude a bit there? if you think you know better than someone (even if you’re wrong), then you should have no trouble kindly educating instead of insulting them.
you may also wish to revisit your highly questionable claim that graphene properly configured on pixel is less secure than stock rom on some random android device.
It’s not questionable at all to assume that a user rooting and installing their own OS is a security risk. That’s the entire premise of zero trust. I’m sure Graphene OS is secure and better for user privacy when configured properly. But you can’t trust that an end user will configure it properly. That’s what I am saying and have been saying since the first message. You can’t trust the user to be security minded. Ultimately, the best thing you can do as a developer or a business is support a known quantity of software and hardware configurations and that likely means only supporting OEM installed ROMs.
Small OT: In the article it’s mentioned also the app “IO” (italian for the english word “I”). There are also other important italian apps not working without play services. The serious thing is that that apps are almost mandatory to do the ordinary public administration bureaucracy. We can say that the italian state forces its citizens to use a smartphone with Google Play Services installed. This is no sense.
modern fascism in action… state and corporate fusion. however, WHY DA FAQ would Italian state do this for the benefit of a foreign corporation…
I get US part of NATO but wtf
The italian government is full of fascists at the moment, but for me its more like tech ignorant laws. To make an example this is a comment of mine about piracy shield; I think that story can well explain the ignorance of italian government in tech related stuff.
Oh great, I guess I’ll have to change my payment info for everything now. Fantastic.
Webapps everything you can like I do with Firefox and ublock origin. Fuck these assholes.
Not for Revolut. App only.
They do have a web app, it’s just very feature limited https://www.revolut.com/blog/post/introducing-the-revolut-web-app/
Like you can’t even pay people money kind of feature limited
not really. services make the mobile site unusable. example:
- facebook: nags you to use the facebook app with popups and large banners
- facebook messenger: does not even let you to log in
Fuck Facebook. I left that shithole in 2015.
Well that’s bad. I’ve been using revolut for years now.
Does anyone have a suggestion for a new bank that’s operating under european law?
Most banks restrict custom ROM and root access devices for security purposes. Same with MFA apps. I get it. From an IT security perspective, restrictions on software compatibility limit the number of failure points. Even if you find a custom OS that is more secure as an OS, it is installed through opening up your device to security risk and there is no real requirement for you to close up that security risk afterward. My company has made the same choice to restrict supported platforms for our services.
McDonald’s app restricting the OS is probably some security decision they made because it’s more secure even when they probably don’t need it though.
It’s not your job to secure my device. It’s your job to provide the service I’m paying you for.
N26 maybe?
Perhaps WISE? You can use the web page unlike Revolut.
Wise isn’t a bank, but it does appear to be the best option in EUR
Wise has a banking license in Belgium much like Revolut has one in Lithuania.
Wise is missing some cool things Revolut has like metal cards that require you to use an expensive plan, or the ability to buy stocks and crypto.
What Wise has instead, is the ability to have both a REAL American AND European bank account in the same app, which you can instantly transfer money between. Revolut doesn’t give you an American bank account if you’re in Europe, idk if they give you an European bank account if you’re in the US. But Wise has both.
Why is this so important? Well let’s say you’re in Europe, you land a side gig doing a bit of work for a big US corporation you’re connected to through your old job. You’ve got your rate negotiated, everything’s sweet. And then they hit you with the question: “Are you able to take ACH payments?”
Now you have to google what an ACH payment is. Then you have to find out how to be able to receive them. Turns out these are internal to the US. Banks outside of the US just don’t accept them, because they’re not part of the system. But wait! Wise actually gives you an actual US bank account complete with routing numbers and everything. In your name, not in some proxy’s name either.
Yes I sound like an advertisement at this point, but it’s ridiculous how useful this gets if you need to move money internationally. I didn’t get all the hype before I needed it, but when I did, it fit my use case like a glove.
I have wise accounts both as a US entity and a EU entity. They give you EU IBAN and US ACH accounts no matter which side of the Atlantic you’re registering from.
They’re the best bank ive found in the EU too, but I didn’t think they were a bank. Its important because a US not-a-bank just collapsed and a lot of people lost their life savings. The not-a-bank assured customers that their money was safe because it was being stored in actual bank’s bank accounts. This would have been true, but the not-a-bank misplaced almost all their funds and, turns out, they weren’t in their partners’ bank accounts. Whoops.
Turns out it’s not an actual bank in the EU either, they just give you an IBAN number and everything.
However, funds in EU are still insured at 20k per account and since they’re not a bank, they can’t be giving out subprime mortgages using your money like banks do, they have to keep it as safe as possible.
Yeah but if they’re not regulated like s bank then they could do the same thing and “misplace” funds so they’re not stored in their partners banks, and you then have 0 insurance, right?
I use Authy under a separate work profile on graphene with no issues 🤔
I use Aegis.
But when did you set Authy up? I don’t recall when Authy made the change, but it wouldn’t kick you out. It would, however, prevent you from signing in a new device. So if you lose your phone, you might lose access to those tokens…
I swear I am so close to jumping into the void of mainline linux on phones.
The only main issue is device drivers, but I would be fine happily extracting them from android or making new ones. Modern Android is a complete full stack POS.
man, and i was gonna switch to graphene this christmas. if every app can just ban my OS, i might have to rethink this. i would use the website but they restrict so many things to apps now…
Use a browser like Native Alpha or Hermit, which present a website like an app.
And if you use Bitwarden/Vaultwarden for your passwords, it can be pretty seamless.
I was about to switch bank because for a few days my current one (inadvertently) blocked it on grapheneOS. We sent them a few emails and they fixed in less than a week.
I use a small local credit union that doesn’t appear on their supported list. It’s literally the only thing holding me back, I’m tempted to say fuck it anyway. But I wonder if it might work anyway…
If nothing else can you use the browser?
I’ve used Hermit for years to present websites like an app, and am using Native Alpha on my new phone.
Yeah you’re probably right. I’ve gotta get a new phone before I can really attempt it, but I’ll at least try!
- Order a Pixel
- Flash GrapheneOS
- If it works, congratulations! If not, switch banks or revert to stock and return the phone.
What’s the app name? I could install it and see what happens
Well, switching to GrapheneOS shows that you don’t care what those companies do and that you’re willing to fight. It means those companies lose one more customer.
Honestly i didn’t even think of that. i’ll still switch then!
Nice choice. You not switching is exactly what these companies wanted.
TBF, this is the first time I’ve encountered an app not working - and it was before this. It’s just because of Google push towards monopoly via their Play Integrity API that’s ruining this.
play “integrity” should be considered malware, any program that deliberately does something the user doesn’t want it to should.
womp womp.
This is very bad news, because this means any app that wants your data could do the same.
On the other hand, it makes it easy to find which apps aren’t to be trusted with your data.
Also very obvious when an app or website have an US and an EU version. You just know they buttfuck the Americans because no rules.
Even Apple had to make two versions of iOS.
Maybe graphene will find a way into duping those apps to think you have a regular android phone?
Their loss.
Is this not a sign of the true intentions on both sides of the dilemma here!?!?
Let us go to the end. We cannot afford to carry on in fear of these bans. Let the lines be neatly placed and the sides chosen wisely. If sustained profits are desired, the walled-gardens must come down.Vote with your dollar and vote again with your data. Wary, but never afraid is the motto privacy comrades!
Agreed. Leave immediately to other services, and tell them why you’re leaving. It might not make a dent, but you’ll be doing the right thing at least.
I haven’t switched my phone yet, but will do so soon. Does anyone have experience with compatibility layers on phone, akin to wine? I unfortunately cannot go without my public transport apps, and they’re android or IOS only. I’ve looking into postmarket OS, but open for suggestions.
GrapheneOS is Android.
Huh TIL, thanks! So would apps usually work, just like on regular android? Except the aforementioned, of course.
Well yes and no. The point is to stop using Google. And that entails quite a few things you might expect a phone to do
You can take a look at calyxOS, it’s what I use. Android but with all Google telemetry ripped out. It’s not as resistant as graphene against a govt adversary, but for privacy, better battery (bc google stuff isn’t constantly running) and still being able to use everything, it works great.
Most EVERYTHING works unless your app dev is PoS like these guys.
Another alternative is MicroG which might work better in light of recent development.
How zealous are you on dumping google?
What public transport apps if I may ask? Most of Western Europe and especially Germany present no issues and even have OSS options, same with Finland.
Thanks for the input, i realise it’s been a while since I checked this! ÖBB Scotty, ÖBB Tickets (could forgo this one) and SBB mobile. I also need Digitales Amt (official government app for things like signing contracts without printing them, ordering your election materials to a different address than usual, checking your medical info etc). Do you happen to know whether that would work?
Don’t know and sadly my Pixel got stolen recently, but you can see if Offi or Transportr meet your needs, they’re available on fdroid.
I guess I have bad news for you regarding the government app: https://discuss.grapheneos.org/d/253-compatibility-for-austria-e-government-app
Anyway depending on your threat model keeping a normiephone as a decoy and mainlining something like graphene os can be a good opsec decision.
Nice, thanks for the tip! Also thanks for going through the trouble of finding out for me, I appreciate it! I’m unfortunately in one of the regions where it’s specifically not available. But the second phone thing might be an option. That, or just a compatibility layer with regular old android after all.
You can use Waydroid on PostmarketOS to install Android apps. It basically runs a full VM for you.
FYI, grapheneOS devs added a list of apps to their wiki:
https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-guide#apps-banning-grapheneos
