There are downsides with downloading their app just to input bad data, but it’s a fun thought.
edit: While we’re at it we might as well offer an alternative app to people.
I posted in [email protected] to collect recommendations for better apps
The post: https://lemmy.ca/post/32877620
Leading Recommendation from the comments
The leading recommendation seems to be Drip (bloodyhealth.gitlab.io)
Summarizing what people shared:
- accessible: it is on F-droid, Google Play, & iOS App Store
- does not allow any third-party tracking
- the project got support from “PrototypeFund & Germany’s Federal Ministry of Education and Research, the Superrr Lab and Mozilla”
- Listed features:
- “Your data, your choice: Everything you enter stays on your device”
- “Not another cute, pink app: drip is designed with gender inclusivity in mind.”
- “Your body is not a black box: drip is transparent in its calculations and encourages you to think for yourself.”
- “Track what you like: Just your period, or detect your fertility using the symptothermal method.”
Their Mastodon: https://mastodon.social/@dripapp
Uh, it was trying to make me pay?
Was totally on board till I hit the pay wall.
people will do anything but search for an alternative
…how do you mean?
Obviously we’re not going to get everyone to download a FOSS period tracker, as nice as that would be – they’re already invested in the ones they’re using, and no doubt it will have features and usability improvements the FOSS one doesn’t, usually thanks to some network service that is fundamentally incompatible with the FOSS philosophy. That’s almost always how these things go.
We should definitely be telling more people about F-Droid, but let’s not get our hopes up. Socialism is about protecting everyone, even people who don’t share your views, even if those views are objectively correct.
“Socialism is about leading horses to water whether they fucking drink or not.”
We should definitely be telling more people about F-Droid, but let’s not get our hopes up
Accessibility (not being on FDroid only) was one of the things I was looking for when looking for recommendations. Thankfully the leading recommendation is on Google Play & iOS App Store :) I have edited the post above with more details
I mean, they dont like the APP because it collects data, but refuse to do one web search for an app that doesn’t, then complain on fucking twitter about privacy concerns??? seriously??
Done. If only I could script it…
Menstrual cycles are so last millennium, I was told there would be menstrual hovercraft by now.
What’s the point of spamming one specific menstrual tracker / women’s health app? Lack of better hobbies? Or is there some controversy around the company behind it? Or just general state of freedom and surveillance in the USA?
The idea is that they’ll be used to track pregnancy and hurt people in certain states. Chaos will help the situation.
A government hunting illegal abortions would only care about data that shows signs of pregnancy followed by early termination, random data will never match those criteria and as such is utterly useless.
Like not having a period for 4 months, then having a period again. You’re expecting legislature and law enforcement to actually know science things.
Also, Google/Apple metrics already know if you’re a boy or girl based on soooo much other data and trackers, that it’s completely trivial for this company or any other company to just filter out any data being reported by a male.
Clearly gotta start listening to truecrime podcasts and let some young kids muck up your YouTube algorithm and they won’t know anymore what your gender is
The tiny percentage of users of these apps doing this will have their outlier data completely ignored. Colossal waste of time and energy.
Computer databases are kind of purpose-built to organize a lot of (arbitrary) information. I seriously doubt this kind of chaos is going to make even the slightest difference. It’s probably just giving people some false sense of security while any information that’s stored in any cloud can still be retrieved. And effortlessly be matched to whomever they like to oppress. At least if it’s associated with some account, email or specific phone.
“A bunch of new accounts posting obviously worthless data joined about the same time. Disregard them.”
So you’re saying if a woman made an account during this time, and threw garbage data in, they’d disregard it and then a month later she could use it for real?
(Also you guys are hilarious about how quickly you can just ‘do that’ because I’ve never worked at any software company where the devs who made the initial code are even still at the company a year or two later.)
This is data analysis, not development. Yes you can just exclude the problem month, average the previous and next months, and her real data starts to contribute again. And yes you can do that regardless of who is writing code. Or even that the code was written by your company and not some other company you bought or seized data from.
probably won’t be hard to spot all the accounts that sign up en masse, send 3 data points then stop forever because they got bored or forgot.
Alright, sure. The company will rigorously dig through the data to exactly remove exactly the specific accounts that aren’t real and deftly deal with it, and it won’t be some intern with a weeks training in paper docs from three years ago. No, it’ll be people who will know to do exactly those things. And the data you’re scraping to sell, well, no-one will mind you splicing out data you claim isn’t real and was fake, no they’ll be fine with that. Then when that intern is gone–and they didn’t log anything because they were never taught to–and the new intern arrives, they’ll know to continue exactly where they should, and at no point will anyone fuck up the dates, times, or additions from previous months. At each and every stage exactly what has to happen will happen, and no code changes, updates, or manager-directives will change any of these parts in any way. The addition of anywhere from dozens to hundreds to even tens of thousands of new accounts will be easy to deal with, because this has all been prepared ahead of time, and will immediately be dealt with. It won’t take weeks of meetings on how to tackle it, by whom, and what to push back - because they use waterfall/agile, and it’s a foolproof system where you don’t just punt things forward, you deliberately and delicately lay out each and every change that will now take place mixed with the 2 years that have already been planned out.
Absolutely everything will be covered and not a single thing will get through, and they’ll carefully and easily parse through the data with zero issues on the demand of a very competent government that doesn’t show any signs of issue whatsoever.
Nah they’ll just say “weird. Guys, exclude November, it’s an outlier”.
I agree with the first half… It’s very easy to ingest and sift through insane amounts of data
What isn’t easy is doing so usefully. Yes, if you can link the account to a person, it’s trivial to pull up their records. Linking is easier said than done - it’s doable, but to make it scale you have to get the full records of device IDs, link them back to a number, then link them to a person. Minimum, you’d need the telco’s data
That’s a staggering amount of work - it’s much easier to do it if the app also has phone numbers, but even then where do you link it? The telco’s have an account holder (which often will be a family member), 50 separate dmvs might have more accurate links, but they’re largely legacy systems that will be a nightmare to work with. It’s doable, but it’s hard
Then you get to distribute this super extensive database of personal information - at this point it’s prism, and probably already has most of this data - they’d just have to ingest period data too
But we don’t give that kind of access to local police, because then every government would end up with it. And that’s a big and genuine security threat… But also a very unwieldy thing to work with. More data means more man hours to work with
The other direction is far more practical - if you start by looking at the data, you can tie it back to a person if they match a pattern. Then you can look at just the records you do have, and pay Amazon or the credit agencies for more. A human can easily investigate another human, because we are great with unstructured data, and computers aren’t
A chaotic data source means more bad leads to manually chase down. Man hours are limited, and people have morale - if a cop wastes an hour on a lead that ends with a spare phone or a single man, they’re going to complain and drag their feet. If productivity and morale are in the garbage, that’s going to lead to pushback. If it happens enough, the message at the top will be “this program doesn’t work”
It would be far better to find the patterns and target them methodically, but even chaotic garbage is effective - data analysis isn’t easy to automate, it’s very expensive to do when accuracy matters and they’re poisoning the data source
We’d need to identify some threat model to continue the discussion. I don’t know what people are afraid of. I’d say the other way round is more likely. For example a state decides to pursue people terminating a pregnancy. They can use data from telecommunications providers to find out which phones cross the border to the neighboring state and return the same or the next day. Disregard people who do it regularly, and then correlate that data to other factors. Like pull up the menstrual tracker account that was accessed by that specific IP address.
We know since Snowden that some agencies do similar things (supposedly for terrorism) and generally a lot of logs are kept. Also we have lots of automatic license plate readers and additional surveillance available.
Aside from that, it is spread that Amazon knows if you’re pregnant before you do. They could also buy the data who is interested in romper suits, supplements or other specific things and then isn’t. I suppose it’s not exactly about that… More that Amazon have some good heuristics and algorithms to predict things from general shopping behaviour. And you could also do the same thing to menstrual tracking. The cycle is pretty regular. And then it usually stops once someone gets pregnant. And I believe after that it takes some time to settle down to a very regular pattern again. You could easily detect that with an algorithm. And simultaneously get rid of artificial (spammed) data that doesn’t follow what is possible. Probably takes a skilled programmer like 3 weeks and then you can tell if an account owner is real, and probably even if they take some contraceptive or not, due to the slight variations. And if an app has some recommendations features, they’re likely to already include the groundworks for data analyzing.
Ultimately, the government already analyzes and stores the data from telco providers. And it’s always easier to combine several factors to make good predictions, than to rely on a single source. And I’d say this kind of surveillance has to be done automatically, anyways. It’s almost never feasible to sift through databases manually.
Ok, let’s use your first example. Someone crosses into a neighboring state and returns in the same day…I had co-workers who did that every day.
Let’s narrow that down… You cross into another state with abortion care once and return in the same day. Or maybe you’re a salesman closing a deal. Or maybe you’re visiting family and have work tomorrow… And honestly, both those situations are far more frequent. That happens every day. It happens more if you live near the border - otherwise you probably got a hotel. Unless you can’t afford a hotel. And the list goes on - all this structured data turns into stories at some point
Here’s the thing. Prism could handle it, because it’s a ton of people on the payroll
The government is not a monolith though…9/11 is a great example. We knew it would happen, we knew it was planned, but the right people didn’t know in the right time, because the agencies are not a monolith.
Because that is the hard part - communication is hard, harder with security concerns. More data means more analysts reviewing it - you can collect all the data you could want , (and we do), you could hire all the analysts you can afford (and we do), but that still gives you severe limits
We’re actually pretty great at stopping terrorism, but we do that (in part) because we have all this data and use it for specific ends
None of this shit is easy - I used to do this, specifically. How do you take 15 data sources that sometimes conflict, and deconflict them? There’s no hierarchy of truth here. This is literally a cutting edge problem - it’s a literal holy Grail. No one can solve it in 3 weeks, or even 3 years
You want a 20% rate? I could give it to you tomorrow, poisoned data or no, I could give it to you in weeks… Maybe not 3, because that’s a shit ton of data sources, but with proper motivation I could pump it out.
You want 90%? Give me a century or two, and I’m good at this. Maybe a genius could give it to you in a lifetime of with
It’s like they say in game dev, you can do 90% in 10% of the time, but the last 10% takes 90% of the time. And that’s a solved problem.
Except this is an unsolved problem, possibly the most lucrative unsolved problems in history
Fuck it, download all of them.
I have several old Android phones sitting in a drawer. They’ve just been given a glorious purpose.
Multiple users ☺️ on each.
The Shelter app (on F-droid) gives you simple access to Android work profiles, allowing you to install multiple copies of apps.
Isn’t it built in now? I have that natively.
To be honest, I don’t completely know. I never used work profiles before Shelter, so I’m not 100% sure.
AfaIk, Shelter is using the built in work profile of Android, as not every UI/ vendor has made it available to the users. (There is no visible button or option in the settings menu.)
E.g. Samsung smartphones have a “work mode”, but the last time I’ve used it (It may be different in current models), it only allowed for second accounts of selected apps like WhatsApp and hence, was a crippled implentation of the Android feature. My Android 11 Samsung tablet has complete multi user support, not only “work mode”.If you are required to install something like InTune by your company, that’s what controls what apps you can install in Work mode. It’s a good trade off because it enforces good separation for them - clipboard is blocked between profiles, data too - but also for me. One little toggle and those apps and the profile are disabled entirely until I care again tomorrow.
Shelter uses the Work Profile. With android 15 you can enable Private Space, which is about the same, for a third instance of an app. Work profile requires an app that manages it like Shelter, private space just works.
Post text:
Dear men I need you to go download an app called “Flo” and start using it chaotically. Don’t ask anyone how to use it. Just use it. The more, the better. Let’s Christmas tree that data.
As a software developer who loves to screw the data and a person who will do ANYTHING can to protect women for the next 4 years, I am so excited to begin tracking my manstrual cycle
Good bot
So I just installed this right now after seeing this, and man this app has a lengthy initial startup process with dark patterns and everything. Now apparently I’m ovulating in two days. 🤭
Is it FOSS? Or does it collect tons of data?
Oop, read the post better. Nevermind hahaha
I’m going to learn how to orgasm!
I’m “abnormal” 🫨
So it’s not normal to have a 55 day cycle? Oh snap!
I’m doing my part!
These symptoms might actually be related to the 12k mountain trail run I did yesterday after work, and I’m pretty sure the bleeding is because I got scratched by a spiky bush, but you cannot be too careful fellas
Day 1065: still feeling fatigue. Poor sleep habits or longest period ever?
I ask my body this every morning.
As with anything involving the complex bundles of systems in the human body, other issues can overlap and mask symptoms of a menstrual cycle, impending or otherwise.
Yes
Take all that neatly organized data and turn it into Christmas tree lights that have been siting in a box all summer.
Okay, but since real menstrual cycles are typically highly regular - wouldn’t it be fairly easy to filter out the fake ones?
Perimenopause can happen in women a lot younger than most people think. I’m in my 30s and dealing with perimenopause symptoms such as hot flashes and irregular periods.
I’m supposed to be tracking my periods to help my Dr decide if that’s what’s going on, but because if this anti abortion garbage I have to do it manually on paper which I’m terrible about remembering to do(brain fog is another symptom)
So yeah, irregular periods are common for many reasons(endometriosis for example), but the most common one every ovulating woman eventually faces is perimenopause and menopause.
Irregular menstrual cycles are very common and happen for a lot of different reasons. Also, there are different kinds of “regular” periods. Someone could be said to have regular periods even if they happen on shorter or longer cycles than the typical 28-30 days provided that it’s a consistent pattern without significant deviation for that person.
Still more regular than randomized data.
You do not have a good understanding of menstruation and gynecology if you think that’s always the case. There are so many variations of irregular menstruation that trying to exclude data based on irregularities would be very difficult or get rid of a lot of legitimate irregular data.
This is the scummiest app I’ve ever downloaded.
Can you elaborate? my wife uses it, I told her aboit Drip and other opensource alternatives but I don’t know where “scummiest” comes from
Well, it depends on what you want out of it and, to be fair, i am not a period-haver.
That being said there is so, so much tracking it is doing to give you data and recommendations. While getting started it felt positively gross the amount fo personal questions it was asking. Why is all that necessary? Again, it depends if you want whatever information it is giving you.
But, even on top of that, wasn’t it proven that the app was selling data to interested parties to be used for nedarious reasons? That’s why we’re even doing this whole men-should-sign-up-to-feed-it-bullshit-and-ruin-the-data in the first place.
Even though, as another user said: it likely wouldnt actually do anything.If we go by the wikipedia page, no, apparently they never did sell data to third parties, although there were allegations at some point. But perhaps wikipedia isn’t the most reliable on this particular subject or is out of date
While getting started it felt positively gross the amount fo personal questions it was asking. Why is all that necessary?
Hi. Occasional period haver here. With all due respect, it’s possible that since the context is the menstrual cycle, questions that seem irrelevant to you (as a not-period-haver) might actually be important for the typical end user (period-havers.) Things like age, weight, diet, activity level, and more can all play a role in how someone’s period affects them. But I have no plans to download this, or any other tracker app, so I can’t independently determine the extent to which that’s the case.
Could anyone who signed up provide some specific question examples?
You really think that i think medical questions and questions about your sexual activity are irrelevant?
No, but i think people shouldn’t be giving that data away. I even clarified that i think it’s gross but it’s up to you to decide if it’s worth it.
Things you would f consider can affect menstrual cycles. Malnutrition. Thyroid issues. The body is one giant interaction effect.
it’s quite silly imo. unlikely to accomplish much or anything at all. teaching people about free software like drip is way more likely to actually help people. it’s free, open source, and completely local.
edit: they even have a mastodon!
Because moving people off Facebook messenger and over to Signal or WIRE instead has been so very effective.
You are right. We here know it. But we are a teeny tiny percentage compared to 340million.
Remember, inertia is a major driving force of humanity.
Really hard to help people who refuse to help themselves.
eh, I’d argue this is very different than signal. for signal to work everyone needs to use it. if you want to use drip you don’t need to make your friends use it too. it’s as simple as installing it from the play store and using it like any other app.
Drip seems to be the leading recommendation. I’ve edited the post with it so people seeing the meme also get the recommendation :)
awesome, thanks!
Not to mention that downloading that flow app will help them boost thier numbers, I doubt they’d care if men are using it as long as they can sell the data…
Would a bunch of users entering garbage data, with not all of them being totally obvious, make it harder to sell that data? Possibly.
It might take a while for thier customers to notice that the data is garbage, or they might develop a way to figure out what data is garbage and still sell other data gathered from the OS/sensors etc from users trying to poison the data.
So I fucking hate that this is where my brain went, but my kneejerk reaction to this was: “If I do this, could it be used as evidence to charge my wife with the death of a nonexistent fetus?”
I live in the cousin-fuckingly-deep south where women are incubators and a long list of stereotypes. I could definitely see it argued in court - successfully - that an app like that was only used on my phone to try to conceal my wife’s data, and the data points to one of the ways we’ve criminalized pregnancy.
…and that’s thinking about what could happen here and now. Once Trump has had his way with our country, we’d probably just get deported to one of daddy Putin’s gulags or some shit.
I really fucking hate it here.
Track your nightly flatulence on a piece of paper too, and keep the same data on it that you put in the app. If it makes it to court claim the app was just a convient way to track other things, and let the courts discuss your farts.
not to mention the reason why you’re only supposed to say the word “lawyer” to cops is they literally tell you: “ANYTHING you say CAN and WILL be used AGAINST YOU in a court of law.” That doesn’t mean “might or maybe” or “to help you.”
Yeah, I would only do this if I lived alone or only with other males and had no SO/post-puberty daughters/close female friends.
What is the actual goal here and will this behavior achieve that goal? Are we…
Adding a bunch of bullshit fictional data into a database that contains and will continue to gather legitimate data.
It strikes me that this would make the entire dataset less useful for legitimate medical research while not really doing much against targeted attacks. I could see some women’s health researchers using anonymized data from something like this, and noise from people vomiting into it in protest would destroy it for that use. Or, you’d notice a bunch of accounts all join at about the same time making nonsensical data and just ignore the data from the accounts that joined around that time. Meanwhile I doubt this will stop the Gestation Gestapo from correlating genuine data with the actual identity of its owner.
Are you going to try to input obviously fake data? Make an attempt at realistic data? Try to trigger a Gestation Gestapo death squad, trying to make the service useless via false positives?
Or run up the service’s data bills and maybe take up some of their cloud storage with fake data?
Start adding bullshit fictional data coinciding with women genuinely leaving the service
What would this accomplish that just having women stop using the thing do?
I’ve been trying to make that point for over a decade now. I think I get to unironically drop this xkcd. The alt text mentions diaspora, lol.
I think people mistakenly believe it will make it harder to identify/charge women who have miscarriages/abortions. Your comment is 100% accurate though and although it’s nice to see men expressing what they view as solidarity by downloading these apps, ultimately it will have no effect and just mess with data being used for public good. Really wish whichever CEO started this trend to get more downloads for their app gets found out, because I can’t imagine who else would suggest people download an app thats main claim to fame is “respects privacy so little it can send you to jail” lol.
