• Catpain Typo@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    Capitalism breeds fascism. As long as we have capitalism we will fight fascism. Communism is not the answer though nor is any extreme ideology. Social direct democracy or even sociocracy would be better systems.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      1 month ago

      Social Democracy retains Private Ownership as the principle aspect of its economy, ergo its still Capitalist. Fascism isn’t distinct from Capitalism, but Capitalism in certain circumstances, ie when it needs to put on a mask and brutally protect itself from its own decay, before taking off the mask and pretending it’s something else, ie it keeps Capitalism’s record “clean.”

      Further, being radical does not equal being wrong. Distance from the status quo does not mean it is not correct, we need to judge legitimately the merits of Socialism/Communism and not just say they are too radical.

      • Catpain Typo@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        Not necessarily. A true sociocracy would value corporations on a system of social good. Not, as now, a measure of how much spare money it has after trade and costs. It should also be very possible to run corporations as co-operatives which spread ownership among the workers.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          1 month ago

          Unless the Proletariat has control of the state, and thus can implement a “corporation behavior credit score” like in the PRC that isn’t in control of private interests, you will see corporations just lobby and get what they want that way. Socialism remains necessary, which is the first step to Communism.

          Secondly, cooperative ownership is nice, but it doesn’t stop the natural centralizing of markets or prove more efficient than public ownership and planning at higher levels of development.

          Really, it sounds like you would like the PRC’s model of economy. Companies like Huawei are worker-owned, the Proletariat has control over the state and thus profit isn’t the central guiding factor of the economy, and there are checks in place to punish corporations that go against benchmarks and metrics for “good” vs “bad” behavior.

          This is the “extreme ideology” you said doesn’t work.

    • explodicle@sh.itjust.works
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      1 month ago

      nor is any extreme ideology. Social direct democracy

      Whoah hold it right there, that’s democratic extremism! You’re taking away all the representatives of bribery and extortion. Best to leave a few weak points, for balance.

  • NutWrench@lemmy.ml
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    1 month ago

    Yeah, there’s nothing worse than a bunch of billionaire shitheads, using the media they control to keep the lower classes fighting with each other while they . . . the rich . . . run off with all the farking money. Oh wait, that’s what’s going on Russia, too.

    There are no “good guys” here. Just billionaire assholes exploiting everybody.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      1 month ago

      The Russian Federation ceased being Socialist in the early 90s, the Hammer and Sickle is a symbol of Marxism. Not sure what your point is.

      • NutWrench@lemmy.ml
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        1 month ago

        The point is that it’s a class war. It always has been. It’s not about “socialism vs capitalism” or “liberals vs conservatives” or The Romulans vs The Federation. It’s about billionaires vs everybody else. It’s about the cluefull vs the clueless.

        • m532@lemmygrad.ml
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          1 month ago

          The hammer and sickle in the picture stands for the working class and the dollar and swastika for the owning class

        • bishbosh@lemm.ee
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          1 month ago

          The point is that it’s a class war. It always has been. It’s not about “socialism vs capitalism”…

          I really think you should maybe watch some youtube essays on Marxism and what it means, I think you might like the things you learn from it.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          1 month ago

          Class War is a fundamental part of the Socialist canon, though, while Capitalism affirms that it is unnecessary.

          Further, a bit nitpicky, but I don’t like framing it as “cluefull vs clueless.” People’s ideas are a product of their material conditions, we shouldn’t downtalk those who don’t know more.

          • NutWrench@lemmy.ml
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            1 month ago

            The people who told you what socialism or capitalism is, LIED to you. “The good of the people” is a noble-sounding goal. But the reality is that the people who deliberately seek power are . . . for the most part . . . vain, greedy, brutal assholes.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              1 month ago

              I don’t think Marx, Engels, Lenin, etc were lying to me when discussing what they wanted to implement and how Socialism and Capitalism function. I don’t think reading speeches and writings of Deng Xiapoing, Xi Jinping, Ho Chi Minh, Fidel Castro, Che Guevara, Joseph Stalin, Kim Il Sung, Mao Zedong, Zhou Enlai, or other leaders of AES states were lying about their intended goals or economic policies either.

              I genuinely don’t understand what you are trying to say here. Are you rejecting analysis of Political Economy, in favor of vibes-based social movements? Genuinely.

              • NutWrench@lemmy.ml
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                1 month ago

                Karl Marx said a lot of things about socialism and collectivism a hundred years ago, but he’s not in charge anymore. The rich oligarchs who replaced him are saying this. You keep saying “but they SAID they were SOCIALISTS” and all I see is Sponge Bob’s eyes, filling up with tears because he just can’t believe that some rich assholes are lying to him.

                We have people in this country who claim to be “christians” who literally elected the anti-christ. Trump embodies ALL the seven deadly sins, but those folks are just fine with it. So let’s quit pretending that belief systems can’t be exploited.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  1 month ago

                  Karl Marx was never “in charge.” He developed a framework for analyzing Political Economy in a manner useful for the Proletariat to identify the manner in which we are exploited, and how we may go about defeating the Bourgeoisie. There are no rich oligarchs replacing Marx.

                  Belief systems certainly can be exploited, but that isn’t the point you are making here. Your point is that we should disregard analysis of Political Economy in favor of vibes-based action. If you don’t do the effort of studying Political Economy, any conclusions you come to will be based on shaky foundations, rather than throwing theory aside, we need to weild it to guide correct practice.

                  Funny enough, Mao described your error over half a century ago, in On Practice:

                  The second point is that knowledge needs to be deepened, that the perceptual stage of knowledge needs to be developed to the rational stage – this is the dialectics of the theory of knowledge.[5] To think that knowledge can stop at the lower, perceptual stage and that perceptual knowledge alone is reliable while rational knowledge is not, would be to repeat the historical error of “empiricism”. This theory errs in failing to understand that, although the data of perception reflect certain realities in the objective world (I am not speaking here of idealist empiricism which confines experience to so-called introspection), they are merely one-sided and superficial, reflecting things incompletely and not reflecting their essence. Fully to reflect a thing in its totality, to reflect its essence, to reflect its inherent laws, it is necessary through the exercise of thought to reconstruct the rich data of sense perception, discarding the dross and selecting the essential, eliminating the false and retaining the true, proceeding from the one to the other and from the outside to the inside, in order to form a system of concepts and theories – it is necessary to make a leap from perceptual to rational knowledge. Such reconstructed knowledge is not more empty or more unreliable; on the contrary, whatever has been scientifically reconstructed in the process of cognition, on the basis of practice, reflects objective reality, as Lenin said, more deeply, more truly, more fully. As against this, vulgar “practical men” respect experience but despise theory, and therefore cannot have a comprehensive view of an entire objective process, lack clear direction and long-range perspective, and are complacent over occasional successes and glimpses of the truth. If such persons direct a revolution, they will lead it up a blind alley.

      • Anarcho-Bolshevik@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 month ago

        So many replies to this topic are just ‘everything sucks because humans are horrible’.

        I could understand a kid making angsty comments like that, but it’s just embarrassing when a grown-up does it.

      • fakir@lemm.ee
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        1 month ago

        Greed is not the cause of capitalism. Capitalism exists to create value for society. My grandfather, an immigrant, opened a bakery 50 years ago to serve his community and raise his family. I, an immigrant, opened a grocery store 10 years ago to serve my community and raise my family. Capitalism can be honest & hard work. In both cases, community over profits was a core principle.

        Greed comes with accumulation and has to be restrained.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          1 month ago

          Capitalism doesn’t really exist soley in the micro, you must factor in the macro. A small gorcery store exists in the context of Capitalism, it isn’t Capitalist itself. The purpose of Capitalism systemically is Capital accumulation and the increase in profits through the general process of converting money into commodities, and into a higher quantity of money, thus seeding even more money for more commodoties and even more money after that in an endless loop.

          • fakir@lemm.ee
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            1 month ago

            The purpose of Capitalism systemically is Capital accumulation and the increase in profits through the general process of converting money into commodities in an endless loop.

            I disagree. The purpose of capitalism systemically is to simply allow for value creation for the entire ecosystem (customers, employees, vendors) and give anyone the individual freedom to do so.

            Current Western flavor of capitalism has allowed short-sighted greed to take over because Wall St demands so.

            On an ideological level, you and I are the same - community over commerce. I support capitalism only under such principles.

            • SabinStargem@lemmy.today
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              1 month ago

              I think the way forward is to have socialism provide all necessities for people - meal kits, utilities, shelter, transport, free gasoline, healthcare, and so forth that are designed to be boring but effective. Capitalism can be used to obtain luxuries - a wider variety of food, fancier cars, bigger houses, brazilian buttlifts, singing bass decorations, and so forth. Money is solely used for such things.

              By doing it this way, people can choose to protest or strike without suffering too much from doing so. Work becomes optional, since survival is ensured. Combined with imposing floors and ceilings on wealth, we can promote democracy and socialism, without sacrificing the vitality of a healthy capitalism.

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                1 month ago

                That’s not really an accurate overview of what constitutes Capitalism and Socialism. Capitalism is not “markets” and Socialism isn’t government services, either. They are each determined by which aspect of the economy is principle, ie in control of the state, large firms, and key industries. Private Ownership as principle is Capitalism, Public Ownership as principle is Socialism. Both systems have a private and a public sector, but the trajectory of the system is very different.

                It sounds like you’re talking about the Nordic countries, ie deteriorating Imperialist states that are seeing crumbling worker protections and rely on super-exploitation of the Global South to subsidize cost of living and safety nets.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              1 month ago

              Capitalism did not arise out of ideological reasons, but as a material process with the shift from small manufacturing to large industry. It arised historically, not because it is natural (it’s only a few hundred years old) nor because someone thought it was a good idea. The mechanical process is as I described. Ideological justifications for it, ie liberalism, arose after the fact.

              Value is created even in non-Capitalist systems, and further, western Capitalism is Capitalism of a more developed stage. You cannot perpetuate small market mechanics, small firms will either grow or die. Once markets coalesce, there really is nowhere to go but revolution and Socialism, or barbarism and collapse.

              • fakir@lemm.ee
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                1 month ago

                The problem of ‘growing big’ has to be solved via cooperatives operating in the same markets, not by disbanding the entire system.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  1 month ago

                  That’s not a solution, though. Cooperatives within Capitalism are subject to the same rules as other firms, only without firm control of the state. These cooperatives will either grow or die, and you end up at the same necessary point, revolution and Socialism, or barbarism. Centralization is a fact of markets that sustain over a long period of time, ergo we should master those laws to make it as democratic and equitable a system as possible. In other words, Socialism.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      1 month ago

      Human aspects like greed are not intrinsic to humanity, but created by the material conditions and mechanisms surrounding them, and are thus malleable and expressed in lower or greater degrees in different systems. Capitalism in particular expresses greed as its entire foundation is the relentless accumulation of profit and exansion of markets and commodification for the purposes of private wealth.

    • JeSuisUnHombre@lemm.ee
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      1 month ago

      Capitalism rewards greed, thus perpetuating it and entrenching it. So capitalism is the root of our greed epidemic

      • vga@sopuli.xyz
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        1 month ago

        It doesn’t reward greed, it rewards putting your resources into profitable endeavors. This is something you need to do in 100% communism as well, if you wish success.

      • nexguy@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        Every type rewards greed because humans and their predecessors have been trained to be greedy for all of time. Be it corruption or by design…it will always be.

          • nexguy@lemmy.world
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            1 month ago

            They did war with each other which included plundering, rape, and slavery. All humans are dicks

              • nexguy@lemmy.world
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                1 month ago

                Russia is this dick in this war. Ukraine has not been a saint in its history. No country has. No native American tribe has been a saint either. If you think one has… name it.

                • superniceperson@sh.itjust.works
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                  1 month ago

                  This is even more reductive than your original argument. If you really feel this way, why haven’t you committed suicide yet? Its the only way, in your version of reality, that you personally aren’t a genocidal nazi.

      • EABOD25@lemm.ee
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        1 month ago

        You have it backwards. Greed is the root of our capitalism epidemic. And you think communist leaders are immune to greed? Just look at NK. The people share what little scraps there are while government officials live very easy lives

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          1 month ago

          Greed is not an intrinsic human characteristic, as I already explained, and further life under brutal sanctions and embargo is difficult for everyone. Resources certainly aren’t distributed equally in the DPRK, but they manage to scrape by with what they can, and which is why lifting the embargo and sanctions is the best thing we can do for the Northern Korean people.

          • TriflingToad@sh.itjust.works
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            1 month ago

            the best thing we can do for the Northern Korean people

            I think the best thing for the people of North Korea is to not force them to live under a brutal dictator.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              1 month ago

              The people of the DPRK support the system they have, whether it truly has a dictator or not. To overthrow their system by force, ie what the US did in Iraq, would be greatly opposed by the people of the DPRK and yet again the US would end up slaughtering hundreds of thousands of Korean civilians, just like they did in the 50s.

              Lifting the sanctions and embargo would dramatically improve their conditions, all the embargo has done is starve people to death during particularly harsh periods, like the Arduous March in the 90s. It isn’t showing any chances of hurting the legitimacy of the DPRK’s government, it’s purely to torture the Korean People into opening up their economy so the US can loot and pilliage it like it did to Iraq.

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  1 month ago

                  Estimates on the exact distribution of millitary vs Civilian deaths are not known, though millions died in total. That’s just from direct involvement in the war, and not the results of sanctions and embargo or other inflicted terror. I use “hundreds of thousands” because it’s

                  1. Undeniably correct, even with bourgeois sources alone, and
                  2. Still gets across the sheer brutality of the US’s genocide on Korea

                  It’s quite possible that civilian casualties do reach the millions, especially if you include the South Koreans killed by the US and the ROK government in areas like Jeju Island.

        • JeSuisUnHombre@lemm.ee
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          1 month ago

          I can’t look at NK because the world capitalist economy isolated them, so I’m not going to argue about their material conditions. I don’t think anyone is immune to greed, but I think having a system that rewards greed is going to turn it from an aberration to an epidemic.

          To your first point, let’s pretend you’re right and look at it in the abstract. What is to be done? Do you want to kill greed? How would you do that?

          • rocket_dragon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            1 month ago

            I can’t look at NK because the world capitalist economy isolated them

            It’s a hereditary dictatorship that isolates itself to control all information its public can access.

            Simping for alternative authoritarian regimes is NOT an effective way of fighting the tyranny of Capital.

            • JeSuisUnHombre@lemm.ee
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              1 month ago

              Not trying to simp. Just saying you and I don’t know what’s really going on over there because of how our dear leaders control all the information that comes out.

              • rocket_dragon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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                1 month ago

                Whose dear leaders? When reporters visit North Korea, who is controlling their movements and managing what they are allowed to see?

          • fakir@lemm.ee
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            1 month ago

            To your first point, let’s pretend you’re right and look at it in the abstract. What is to be done? Do you want to kill greed? How would you do that?

            You’re getting somewhere! First, don’t point your finger at capitalism as the problem. Second, acknowledge & understand greed and how it is inherent in all human nature. Third, build systems that minimize the damage done by individual or corporate greed. Check against consolidation, monopolization, and short term Wall St like thinking of endless growth. Four, make sure socialist programs exist to support everyone, and capitalism is not the only way to live, it’s optional. When you think like that, the European nations seem to be doing things quite alright, but they are still vulnerable to greed. And so they must be vigilant against greed, not capitalism.

            • JeSuisUnHombre@lemm.ee
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              1 month ago

              First, don’t point your finger at capitalism as the problem.

              You already lost me

              Second, acknowledge & understand greed and how it is inherent in all human nature.

              I would rather acknowledge and encourage humans inherent nature to cooperate and grow together.

              Third, build systems that minimize the damage done by individual or corporate greed.

              Like building an economy that doesn’t inherently reward greed? I wonder what that would look like.

              Check against consolidation, monopolization, and short term Wall St like thinking of endless growth.

              These things exist because of capitalism

              Four, make sure socialist programs exist to support everyone

              That’s social welfare. Being socialist means the workers own the means of production

              capitalism is not the only way to live, it’s optional

              It’s so easy to live in the USA and just not do capitalism /s

              the European nations seem to be doing things quite alright

              Do you understand that their wealth was pillaged from the global south?

              Can you give me a description of what makes socialism bad solely based on how it works (not referencing any country who may have attempted it)?

              • fakir@lemm.ee
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                1 month ago

                First, don’t point your finger at capitalism as the problem.

                You already lost me

                I know, many here have have an automatic trigger on ‘capitalism’, but I appreciate you trying. I will try to respond sincerely.

                Second, acknowledge & understand greed and how it is inherent in all human nature.

                I would rather acknowledge and encourage humans inherent nature to cooperate and grow together.

                Me too! Cooperation is the good against the evil of greed. But greed still exists, you can’t wish it away, you have to strategize against.

                Third, build systems that minimize the damage done by individual or corporate greed.

                Like building an economy that doesn’t inherently reward greed? I wonder what that would look like.

                Greed is rewarded in every economy.

                Check against consolidation, monopolization, and short term Wall St like thinking of endless growth.

                These things exist because of capitalism

                No, they exist because of greed & corruption and failure of systems to contain those things.

                Four, make sure socialist programs exist to support everyone

                That’s social welfare. Being socialist means the workers own the means of production

                No, socialist systems like free housing, healthcare, education can exist alongside capitalism. Worker owned systems like cooperatives still operate in a market.

                capitalism is not the only way to live, it’s optional

                It’s so easy to live in the USA and just not do capitalism /s

                It’s impossible in the USA, I’m with you.

                the European nations seem to be doing things quite alright

                Do you understand that their wealth was pillaged from the global south?

                Yes, the British East India company uprooted my own ancestors and erased all culture. I’m against imperialism as much as you, but this has nothing to do with it.

                Can you give me a description of what makes socialism bad solely based on how it works (not referencing any country who may have attempted it)?

                1. Lack of standardization means you can’t be sure of what you’re getting. Is the milk from this farmer as good as the other farmer?
                2. Same price for same good means lack of incentive to improve / innovate. Why grass feed your cows when milk will only sell for a set fixed price?
                3. Markets will still exist, you can’t wish them away. It’s human nature. I want to make cake and feed you, but I still need to buy the ingredients, invest the capital, take the risk. Capitalism just rewards that risk.
                4. Greed still exists, maybe I can add a little water to the milk, huh, who will ever find out?
                5. Corruption still exists and without checks & balances, a centrally controlled system is very likely to being corrupted at the core.
                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  1 month ago

                  The first half of your comment is attributing a static and supernatural quality to the concept of “greed” in a manner that obfuscates the underlying material structures, and why greed is expressed in different ways and degrees depending on the system. This is wrong.

                  Secondly, Social Programs are not Socialism. Socialism is an economy where Public Ownership is the principle aspect of the economy, while Capitalism is where Private Ownership is the principle. Whichever has firm control of the state, large firms, and key industries is the principle aspect. A cooperative in the US is not a single fragment of Socialism, just like a market in the PRC is not simply Capitalism.

                  Now, for your five points:

                  1. This is not a problem with Socialism in any capacity. I truly don’t understand what you mean by saying standardization is an issue with Socialism.

                  2. Price fixing is not Socialism itself, but a tool. Socialist systems can and do employ price fixing on some goods, but this is a tool that works well in some situtations and not so well in others, and as such Socialist systems can apply them where needed.

                  3. Markets are not Capitalism. Markets work well at lower stages in development, but gradually monopolize and centralize over time, making it more effective to publicly own and plan. You agree with Marx when you say you can’t wish them away, but you imply they will always be useful based on a biological need to trade, which does not exist.

                  4. Regulations and oversight exists within Socialism, directly breaking the law can be punished and audited. This point is silly.

                  5. Checks and balances can be better implemented in Socialist systems where private individuals do not weild massive armies of influence. This is another silly point.

                  I recommend you read up on Marxism, I keep an introductory Marxist-Leninist reading list you can check out. If you haven’t investigated a subject, why speak as though you have?

                • JeSuisUnHombre@lemm.ee
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                  1 month ago

                  Cowbee is mostly correct so I’m not going to address everything but there are 2 pieces I want to respond to.

                  Greed is rewarded in every economy.

                  That doesn’t seem to be true. Like an economy that doesn’t funnel money into individuals. Or even moneyless economies like Library or Gift. (Though moneyless economies imply we’re achieving actual communism, going beyond socialism)

                  No, socialist systems like free housing, healthcare, education can exist alongside capitalism. Worker owned systems like cooperatives still operate in a market.

                  Are you talking about free housing (etc) programs being managed as a cooperative, alongside a commodities market of cooperatives? If yes, that’s not capitalism, that’s socialism. If no, then you must be talking about a welfare state like what’s in Scandinavia, which isn’t socialist.

                  Kind of relevant to both points, there are a few different schools of socialism so you could see if any make more sense to you.

          • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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            1 month ago

            I don’t follow, Communism in the Marxian sense has administration and thus leadership. Are you suggesting a different structure?

    • juliebean@lemm.ee
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      1 month ago

      capitalism is the system whereby greed is raised above all other human impulses though. in most other systems, sure, people can be greedy, but they aren’t rewarded for it, and people who aren’t naturally greedy don’t get pushed and trained to be greedy as the highest aspiration.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      1 month ago

      Cool agitprop posters like what OP posted rarely give you a particularly nuanced perspective due to their limited space. The intended effect is to spark conversation, not to beam Marxism into the heads of anyone who sees it.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          1 month ago

          For real… 🫠

          If I write an essay, people don’t genuinely read it, if I write short responses I either over-simplify or manage to raise more questions than I answer… at least, it feels that way sometimes, lol

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              1 month ago

              Thanks, I appreciate it! I know there are people who do, some of them send me DMs or reply directly to me so it all justifies the efforts I do, I just wish the human brain worked better with direct argumentation than it does when viewing a debate from the outside. Ie, I wish those I carefully spend time writing for took it to heart more than onlookers tend to, but the net result is still positive so I keep with it.

              Thanks again!

          • rocket_dragon@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            1 month ago

            Your comments are consistently high quality and there’s plenty of people reading without engaging who will be influenced in small but meaningful ways. You’re planting good seeds.

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              1 month ago

              Thank you, I appreciate it! I do it more for others than the people I directly interact with, who have largely made up their mind already. That’s generally my strategy, people looking to argue online aren’t going to change their minds, they see it as a “win/lose” situation. Instead, I focus on refutation of absurd claims and well-sourced information more for onlookers to engage with. I really like Nia Frome’s articles on Red Sails called Marketing Socialism and On Dialectics, Or How to Defeat Enemies. They really help shape how I engage with others online, decisive and sharp refutation is very useful for onlookers to see.

              For more fun articles on why people believe what they do, I’m a big fan of Roderic Day’s “Brainwashing” and Masses, Elites, and Rebels: The Theory of “Brainwashing.” Those help dramatically with seeing that, really, there’s little convincing others directly in online debate, but there is hope for others whose material conditions have opened them up to new ideas to see and engage with more information they are curious about.

      • orca@orcas.enjoying.yachts
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        1 month ago

        It reminds me of how people hated on “defund the police” messaging. I got into an argument with someone that focused on the phrase alone and was completely uninterested in a genuine discussion about what it means. Like what do they expect? An entire novel written on a poster or a tweet to appease them? The point is to kick the conversation off, not spoon-feed you.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          1 month ago

          Yep, you hit the nail on the head! Effective agitprop sparks conversations and forces engagement, not just people immediately dismissing it or accepting it before going on with their days.

  • Mark12870@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    It is terrible to see so many comments here celebrating communism. Communists were ruining our country (Czechia) for over 40 years and led it to economical collapse. When we tried to reform the regime in 1968, the Russians invaded to stop it. Communism doesn’t really work, and it has already been proven.

    Also, I have to say the country worked in a bizzare way. The government robbed everyone of their property, so in return, people were stealing from public supplies.

    So please try to study something first about communism in Eastern Europe before you start to celebrare this regime.

  • AidsKitty@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    I see we are reaching for “full retard” today. If you love communism go and live in a communist country.

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      1 month ago

      That’s the plan! Though I want to aid in turning my own country Communist, as that would benefit the most people globally, or at least take down the US Empire.

      Ableism aint cool either.

      • atmorous@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        Read my comment on this post. Think Capitalism mixed with Socialism would be good alternative for everyone

        • pumpkinseedoil@mander.xyz
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          1 month ago

          That’s what most European countries (social democracies) are doing. Safety net so you don’t randomly become homeless (you keep getting a part of your salary for a while, and even without any money there are enough places to sleep for all homeless people, at least in Austria), free healthcare, …

          • m532@lemmygrad.ml
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            1 month ago

            There’s no socialism in social democrats, only capitalists doing concessions so the people don’t demand socialism

            • pumpkinseedoil@mander.xyz
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              1 month ago

              I’m going to university for 27€ per semester while getting free healthcare and subsidised housing and lunch. If I were to become homeless I could go to a shelter for sleeping and food. Additionally you get a certain percentage of your salary (starting at ~80%, becomes less as the months pass, but it’s plenty of time to find a new job) after getting fired. Schools are free and there are basically no private schools because there’s simply no need, public education is good. After childbirth you also get money until you can work again, for up to 3 years. There are regulations against monopolies and cartels. Etc etc.

              imo this is the ideal system

              • m532@lemmygrad.ml
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                1 month ago

                "My men enslave people in africa to get rubber and murder them if they dont gather enough rubber and then we ship it here and then we have lots of rubber in belgium and the suffering happens somewhere else where I’ll never be

                imo this is the ideal system"

                - king of belgium, probably

                • pumpkinseedoil@mander.xyz
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                  1 month ago

                  What about not enslaving people?

                  And of course people in weaker economies get paid less, they also need less since everything is cheaper.

              • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                1 month ago

                The whole problem is that your system is built on the backs of super-exploiting the Global South. You’ve exported the bulk of the hard labor that allows you to live comfortable lives, and maintain it through the domination of private financial Capital.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          1 month ago

          I responded to it, but I want to respond to this as well. There’s really no such thing as “mixing” Capitalism with Socialism. Private and Public property can be mixed, but what determines Capitalism or Socialism is if the former is the principle aspect of the economy, or the latter. By principle, I mean which controls the state, large firms, and key industries.

  • person1@lemm.ee
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    1 month ago

    Yeah great, because what we need now is soviet propaganda. This needs to die

    • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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      1 month ago

      Soviet propaganda is a good thing, and it’s on the mark here. Socialism is necessary and Capitalism is clearly on the downhill.

          • pumpkinseedoil@mander.xyz
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            1 month ago

            What if you were one of the unfortunate ones who simply got starved? If you criticised the government, or if someone simply accused you of being against the system? What if you weren’t even against the system but simply had a higher position (for example in the military, or as a politician) before your country was made part of the USSR? What about the huge lanes in front of grocery stores when they got new food?

            Why were there such huge protests, and why did they have to be bloodily shut down? All owning class people?

            • BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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              1 month ago

              People like you really should be forced to live under the conditions of pre-Soviet Russia. If literal feudalism and a life expectancy of thirty is so great to you, you should have to live it yourself

              • pumpkinseedoil@mander.xyz
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                1 month ago

                I’m not saying that was good either, but middle European countries started with a similar situation and got much farther. I recognise the USSR as a lesser evil than tsarist Russia, but that doesn’t mean it’s good. More like an upgrade from 2/10 to 4/10 while other countries went paths that lead to 8/10

                • BrainInABox@lemmy.ml
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                  1 month ago

                  I’m not saying that was good either, but middle European countries started with a similar situation and got much farther.

                  No they didn’t.

                  but that doesn’t mean it’s good.

                  K. Your line for what counts as “good” is completely arbitrary and vibes based.

                  while other countries went paths that lead to 8/10

                  No they didn’t

            • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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              1 month ago

              Lets examine these.

              1. Food security got much better in the Soviet Union over Tsarist Russia, which is a huge part of why life expectancy over doubled from the start of the Soviet Union gradually as they focused on agriculture, housing, and healthcare for the working class.

              2. Criticism of government wasn’t an executable offense unless you were forming terrorist cells or causing legitimate political instability, such as Trotsky, who did both.

              3. The millitary was not purged of everyone in it, those found to be Tsarist collaborators or part of the Tsarist White Army were punished for their crimes against the people. Not all of them were executed, imprisonment was also quite common.

              4. It is better to feed the people than let them starve. World War II and the years right after it were especially brutal, as the Nazis took Ukraine, the USSR’s breadbasket, causing mass food shortages. 20 million Soviet people lost their lives to the Nazis, but thankfully the Red Army beat the Nazis.

              There, generally, were not huge protests. I’d like to know which ones in particular you are talking about, but protest wasn’t that common as until the later years, government approval was fairly high.

              • pumpkinseedoil@mander.xyz
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                1 month ago

                ad 1.: much worse than in western counterparts

                ad 2.: my great grandfather was sent to a gulag for criticising the DDR’s government

                ad 3.: another great grandfather didn’t do anything except being an officer in the Hungarian military, so he got killed in the communist revolution (1956)

                DDR 1953

                Hungary 1956 (fighting for democracy and freedom), peaceful student protest was shot at, police and Hungarian army supported the protesters, they got a new president who promised multiple parties and free elections, as well as leaving the Warsaw pact. The USSR sent tanks to end the revolution by killing protesters, the new president was killed too, many people in the military (doesn’t matter if they supported joining the movement for freedom and democracy or wanted to stay in the USSR) got killed.

                Prague 1968 peaceful movement for human rights and basic freedoms -> USSR sent troops to end it

                • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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                  1 month ago
                  1. Wrong, actually, if you trust internal CIA reports.

                  2. Anecdotes, especially familial ones, are not a replacement for expansive data taking. I have no idea what your great-grandfather was sent to prison for, nor is a single case like that representative of the entire USSR.

                  3. The Hungarian revolt in 1956 was infested with anti-semetic pograms. MI6 funded, supplied, and trained the Hungarian counter-revolutionaries. These counter-revolutionaries were allied with fascists who were lynching Jewish people and Communists.

                  "The special correspondent of the Yugoslav paper, Politika, (Nov. 13, 1956) describing the events of those days, said that the homes of Communists were marked with a white cross and those of Jews with a black cross, to serve as signs for the extermination squads. “There is no longer any room for doubt,” said the Yugoslav reporter, “it is an example of classic Hungarian fascism and of White Terror. The information,” continued this writer, “coming from the provinces tells how in certain places Communists were having their eyes put out, their ears cut off, and that they were being killed in the most terrible ways.”

                  “But the forces of reaction were rapidly consolidating their power and pushing forward on the top levels, while in the streets the blood of scores of massacred Communists, Jews, and progressives was flowing.”

                  “Some of the reports reaching Warsaw from Budapest today caused considerable concern. These reports told of massacres of Communists and Jews by what were described as 'Fascist elements’ …” (N.Y. Times, Nov. 1. 1956)

                  “The evidence is conclusive that the entry of Soviet troops into Budapest stopped the execution of scores, perhaps thousands of Jews, for by the end of October and early November, anti-Semtic pogroms - hallmark of unbridled fascistic terror - were making their appearance, after an absence of some ten years, within Hungary.”

                  "A correspondent of the Israeli newspaper Maariv (Tel Aviv) reported:

                  During the uprising a number of former Nazis were released from prison and other former Nazis came to Hungary from Salzburg . . . I met them at the border . . . I saw anti-Semitic posters in Budapest . . . On the walls, street lights, streetcars, you saw inscriptions reading: “Down with Jew Gero!” “Down with Jew Rakosi!” or just simply “down with the Jews!”

                  Leading rabbinical circles in New York received a cable early in November from corresponding circles in Vienna that “Jewish blood is being shed by the rebels in Hungary.” Very much later-in February, 1957-the World Jewish Congress reported that “anti-Semitic excesses occurred in more than twenty villages and smaller provincial towns during the October-November revolt.” This occurred, according to this very conservative body, because “fascist and anti-Semitic groups had apparently seized the opportunity, presented by the absence of a central authority, to come to the surface.” Many among the Jewish refugees from Hungary, the report continued, had fled from this anti-Semitic pogrom-like atmosphere (N.Y. Times, Feb. 15, 1957). This confirmed the earlier report made by the British Rabbi, R. Pozner, who, after touring refugee camps, declared that “the majority of Jews who left Hungary did so for fear of the Hungarians and not the Russians.” The Paris Jewish newspaper, Naye Presse, asserted that Jewish refugees in France claimed quite generally that Soviet soldiers had saved their lives."

                  Further, the CIA also backed Hungarian resistance forces:

                  Prague in 1968 was a similar fascist uprising in both cases there were some elements of progressive protest, but these were greatly overshadowed by the fascist movements.

                  I’m not making any accusations here, I want you to elaborate more, but legitimately it sounds like you’re saying your family members were fascists or fascist sympathizers. I want you to clear their names, because Hungary absolutely fought on the side of the Axis in World War II, and the 1956 counter-revolt was against the Communists.

        • Nemo's public admirer@lemmy.sdf.org
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          1 month ago

          I think so, relatively.
          Weren’t they better than the Tsarist rule?

          Like, public healthcare, education and other policies leading to high literacy rates, longer lifespans, low infant and mother mortality etc.

          And if we compare them to the other major powers at the time, aren’t they better than those since they made progress without colonies?

      • Anarcho-Bolshevik@lemmygrad.ml
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        1 month ago

        Hardly anybody in this thread seems to have arrived at the conclusion that maybe some lower-class people have an interest in and nostalgia for the Eastern Bloc because capitalism is becoming increasingly intolerable.

        It reminds me of the chumps who condescendingly explained to feminists that misandry is a serious problem on par with white supremacy and that not all men are awful. What a way to miss the point. Telling a lower-class person that communism is actually horrible doesn’t fix anything and neither does reminding an unhappy feminist that there are some good men in the world.

        • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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          1 month ago

          Yep, plus we need to factor in the fact that in these studies, there are non-working class people polled. Ie, bourgeoisie that enjoy new luxuries and privledges they did not have before. Of course they will say Capitalism is better.

          Polling just the working class majority, we can expect even more definitive results pointing to a longing for the stability and safety of the Soviet system.

        • culprit@lemmy.ml
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          1 month ago

          According to American ethnographer and Professor of Russian and East European Studies at the University of Pennsylvania Kristen Ghodsee, efforts to institutionalize the “double genocide thesis”, or the moral equivalence between the Nazi Holocaust (race murder) and the victims of communism (class murder), in particular the push at the beginning of the 2007–2008 financial crisis for commemoration of the latter in Europe, can be seen as the response by economic and political elites to fears of a leftist resurgence in the face of devastated economies and extreme social inequalities in both the Eastern and Western worlds as the result of the excesses of neoliberal capitalism. She says that any discussion of the achievements by Communist states, including literacy, education, women’s rights, and social security is usually silenced, and any discourse on the subject of communism is focused almost exclusively on Joseph Stalin’s crimes and the “double genocide thesis”, an intellectual paradigm summed up as such: “1) any move towards redistribution and away from a completely free market is seen as communist; 2) anything communist inevitably leads to class murder; and 3) class murder is the moral equivalent of the Holocaust.” By linking all leftist and socialist ideals to the excesses of Stalinism, Ghodsee posits that the elites hope to discredit and marginalize all political ideologies that could “threaten the primacy of private property and free markets”.

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_genocide_theory#Memory_politics_and_the_Holocaust_in_Eastern_Europe

          • storm@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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            1 month ago

            I should have clarified that I’m not against socialism, just the hierarchy of states. We should instead pursue more egalitarian socialist expressions like social ecology or kinds of anarchy.

            • culprit@lemmy.ml
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              1 month ago

              making the perfect the enemy of the good

              this is you rn

              socialism >> communism is a evolving process, but every time it starts growing and developing, capital asserts itself to dominate and destroy it

              the only Actually Existing Socialisms today have nuclear deterrents to avoid this fate, they also have to develop counter-intelligence defenses because just nuclear weapons are not enough to protect from all the myriad threats that capital engages in towards anti-socialist >> anti-communist goals

              if you can not understand this material reality of history, and use it to analyze the struggle for liberation in this world, you are lost

    • person1@lemm.ee
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      1 month ago

      I’m going to take a wild guess that posters and downvoters in this thread don’t live in actual communist countries. Endorsing hammer and sickle is just as bad as endorsing swastikas…

      • Cowbee [he/they]@lemmy.ml
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        1 month ago

        The portrayal of the Communists and Nazis as “twin evils” exaggerates the sins of the Communists in quantity and quality, while minimizing the sins of the Nazis in quantity and quality, in order to show them as relatively equal problems. In other words, its Nazi apologia, and historical revisionism. Read Blackshirts and Reds.

        The Nazis executed the Communists, Socialists, gay people, trans people, disabled people, Jewish people, Slavic people, and many, many more. It wasn’t simple opposition, it was a racially supremacist ideology.

        The Communists executed Tsarists, fascists, and terrorists to the state. They did not create a systematic industrialized murder machine like the Nazis did in order to keep up with how many people they needed to kill.

  • thedruid@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    Because at then end ,power over the people is given to the state. When you give the state the means of production and that state falls under the sway of humans with power, you get corruption and death.

    Once a place has enough people, anonymity happens. We stop knowing our neighbors and leaders. We don’t see the corruption they can now hide. Communism gives an easier way to leverage that corruption and power more easily

    Socialism, more specifically forms of democratic socialism ( and with today’s tech it can be one vite one person), is far more scalable and stable

    We need a new constitution with more power given to the people and LESS to the state